We've just launched our map. Add yourself by clicking here!

close

Extruder Development V4

This topic contains 42 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by  Gaston 1 month ago.

10
Nate Chandler cymek

Extruder Development V4

30/10/2018 at 00:51

Hello Plastic Precious Community!

My name is Nate Chandler, I will be working for PP V4 in Eindhoven until January. My teammate in this effort is Dutch engineer – @peter-bas.

We are working to continue the development of the extrusion machine;
building on the research that the rest of the community has already contributed.

Our material research will be populated on this spreadsheet, which is similar to mathijsstroober’s beam research.

The development plan is going to hit different points, some highlights:

Plastic Preparation – sieve granule size, how will this affect our material output.

Material Testing – MFI (Melt flow index), Tensile testing, HDT / Vicat (Thermo/mechanical properties), and compression capacity.

Dies / Molds – 25MM Square tubing, 25MM pipe, 50MM square tubing,
channel / unistrut, Brick 100x100x300mm, and experimenting with large injection molds. Currently we are using a 15mm NPT pipe fitting for beam extrusion.

–   Nozzle Size – 1mm – 8mm, This will be upgraded to a custom milled part(s).
A >1mm tri hole for fabric / thread(?)
Square nozzle, made by modified phillips(cross-head) bolt.

Performance Monitoring – Adding pressure / heat sensors, this should give us a better perspective on what our speed / heat settings are producing.

Motor – Replacing the current 2.2Kw Motor for a 3Kw motor with higher RPM potential.

Continuous Beam Extrusion Water cooling jacket R+D.

Ergonomics – Variable speed control through the use of a TIG welding pedal / Sewing pedal setup. Temperature controller placement.

These additions / upgrades are directed towards more efficient material output, and ease of machine use for product design.

An area I am particularly interested in are the problems our community is facing when it comes to constructing the extrusion machine. I am eager to hear / field some questions.

Stay tuned!

42 replies
17 subscribers
9 saved
10 likes
sort on date
starter
02/12/2018 at 19:02
3

Hello Everyone!

I am happy to see lots of interest in the current development. This last month has been spent working on upgrading the machine with a new motor 1.8KW >> 3KW, and trying to develop continuous extrusion with water cooling.

Originally when we were doing beam extrusions, we were using 3 meter lengths, and waiting for the plastic to cool before being able to slide it out of the mold.

These days we are using a water pump system which sprays cold water on the entire mold, and slightly slower speeds, to be able to continuously extrude out of the mold without taking it off the machine.

This has had varied success, with 30x30MM square tubing it works well, and produces smooth beams after the inital 1/2 a meter or so.

When you try to move up towards 50x50MM the material becomes to thick to cool the center (the plastic flows through the center and hits the walls over and over as it fills the beam mold) and fails as soon as it reaches the end of the mold.

So maybe water cooling is not the option. This is where our new setup comes in.

The new motor has a higher gear ratio, so we are able to get much faster output. At max speed, we are turning the extrusion screw at 440 RPM. We are outputting material into molds at that rate.

This has resulted in filling meter long lenths of 65MM round tubing in 10-15 minutes. They weigh in at 9 kilos.

With larger mold filling at high speed, we are not water cooling. We wait for the mold to fill, then stop the machine for about 10 minutes, then turn it back on; The new material pushes out the now cooled material, and we can just pull it out after a few seconds. This makes workflow easy, as there is no water, and no need to pull the mold off of the machine.

Thats all for now, see y’all soon!

Attachments:
helper
11/01/2019 at 14:48
2

I have found this design of an extruder head for PVC Pipe .
I think this is something what we are looking for

here is the link to 3d file : https://drive.google.com/open?id=1l7LEAG41lSeJOvc44x8T490YhYfEEkLa

take care

Attachments:
warrior
14/08/2019 at 19:21
1

@jovinc , Wow, that is a great investment. Hopefully you can publish some of the recorded data.
I think mapping what pressure is available at the nozzle for different plastics, nozzle diameters, temperatures, motor parameters (speed, torque, current) would greatly enhance the communities understanding of the extruder. It would also be interesting to know how the plastic flake size affects these since that will help size the shredder.

Thank you again for implementing a great piece of instrumentation.

starter
14/08/2019 at 17:07
1

@s2019
Sorry for the late late reply..
We use a Dynisco indicator UPR900 with a Dynisco ECHO melt censor and a DYMT temperature censor. It’s a quite expensive purchase…

Attachments:
starter
14/08/2019 at 16:57
1

Hey  @rushabhc

200 Nm torque motor is clearly sufficient for the v3 extrusion machine.

I maybe need more details about your installation with the barrel. If the motor halt when you put the granulates in, it’s not a problem with the coupling but more with the motor itself.

What I can suppose about your problem is that the coupling of your asynchronous motor (Delta or star) is not right. It depended on the mains voltage of your installation and the rated voltage of the motor.

If u don’t got the right configuration, the motor is running but with a really low torque 🙂

Attachments:
starter
08/08/2019 at 15:03
1

Hi @jovinc,

I am currently working on building my v3 extrusion machine,

We are having some troubles with our current motor, which is a 3kw, 200nm torque motor, with a max rpm of 500 at 50hz.

But it seems like the special extrusion screw needs a lot more torque to run. As currently, the motor comes to a halt as soon as we put the granulates in.

How much torque do you think is needed?

And what kind of connection (bearing, coupler) are you using for the connection to the motor? It would be great if you could provide some details of what exact parts you are using for your extruder.

Thanks,
Rushabh

starter
15/05/2019 at 22:08
1

regarding the hopper mount; it would be great to have a standardized way so industrial hoppers/mixers can be mount (circular flange). these are quite cheap; i found them on second hand trades/auctions for about 100 – 300 euros just 🙂 typically a hopper has also an auger like feed control; ensuring max. control over quality ..
g

warrior
15/05/2019 at 18:57
1

Thank you for posting the datasheet example. How are you measuring the melt temperature and pressure?

starter
15/05/2019 at 15:52
1

To build the V4 extruder, a bit more knowledge and experience will be required in machine building, but should still be able to be done by the majority of machine shops worldwide. The tools required to make the extruder V4:

– Conventional lathe (up to 100 mm stock size, +/- 1m between the centers)
– Conventional milling machine Metric taps (M4 up to M12)
– Metric pipe tap (G1/4)
– Basic hand tools
– Welding machine Brazing torch (acetylene or similar)
– Bending machine

The outline of the extruder V4 will be:

– New Screw ⌀30 mm
– Bigger Hopper
– Cooling zone for the hopper and two parts barrel to avoid melting in the hopper.

I am eager to hear / field some questions. Tell us about what you think about the outline and the tools required to make the extruder V4.

See you soon fellow PP Community 🙂

starter
15/05/2019 at 14:50
1

The current extruder is built with a 3kW motor, a screw speed controller and an exchangeable nozzle to have various output orifices.

The goal in this phase is to determine the required temperatures, speeds and other processing parameters to optimize the melt quality and extruder output. We also want to size the geometry of the nozzle through different orifice size (6-8-10-12mm) and see the output and quality on different orifice on the nozzle.
For at least a month and a half we made test by extruding beams 40X40 mm with different orifice size on the nozzle . Around 120 beams (60 PP/60PS) made with the famous @timslab.

We will finish, group all we got, and then introduce you the results we got at the end.

So stay tuned 😉

Attachments:
helper
08/01/2019 at 19:40
1

I need to make time to check in here more often. It’s exciting to see your efforts towards continuous output extrusion, this will be an important improvement.

I started building a water-cooled beam mold as well but haven’t had the time to complete and test it. Rather than drip cooling I made a jacket through which water can be circulated.  I wasn’t sure whether I was on the right track but your results are encouraging.
I’d be happy to share any information with you on the machines I have been building, if that would be helpful.  Feel free to send me a message.

Keep up the good work!

warrior
03/12/2018 at 02:36
1

have you sectioned the output at the higher speeds to determine the presence of bubbles?

 

Is this with HDPE?  I am very interested in seeing if the output would be suitable for use as a engineering plastic for use on a lathe and mill.

Second, when working with a filastruder, I came up with a idea of using a e3d cold end with a teflon insert as the die.  Basically the die would be teflon and the cooling would be via a heat sink and fan.

Looking forward to seeing your results.  My own 2.2kw extrusion machine will be done in the next few days.  Some delays as I had to go out of town and train the precious plastic setup in another town last week.

 

Here is the link to my revised screw file with the bigger shaft.  I did not add in the keyway.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4449oapi94esoco/AAAG8J4nbZd67mPrs-fsSgOga?dl=0  Sorry no layout drawing…

 

 

 

 

dedicated
02/11/2018 at 00:39
0

Hi, I have start to build a extrusion machine but the hardest problem for me is to find the right tube (barrel) , I have a 26 mm drill screw and I need to know how the internal diameter could be to work well, 26.1, 26.3, 27? Are you using the 25.7 mm extruder screw with 26.. Tube? Thank youin advance for your answer

helper
09/10/2019 at 14:19
0

@rushabhc were i can see videos of all proces?

starter
06/10/2019 at 16:07
0

Thanks a lot @cgoflyn2 & @jovinc.

The machine is up and running now. It works like a charm. 🙂

14/08/2019 at 20:35
0

Yeah, thanks for the updates ! Here is btw. a 6 channel PID controller for heating and cooling; a little harder to control but I am intending to extend our v4 fork for a touchscreen anyway. Just to make sure folks can get a little easier to their beloved filament mile 🙂

starter
09/08/2019 at 18:51
0

@rushabhc, sorry for the late answer. I know that 0.75Kw – 1480 RPM | 3phase via VFD | 1:30 reducer is doing just fine for a 65 cm industrial screw with 25 mm diameter. I left a vendor sources for the motor on the wiki page. For couplings I am not sure, we mill them ourself.

new
15/07/2019 at 10:53
0

@timslab, any news about the v4 screw? We just started today the v3 screw making documentation and postponed the v4 screw documentary for the end of the week.
thanks

starter
15/05/2019 at 21:41
0

hard to say without seeing the drawings or some fotos, in a way we can determine this tools and operations are really needed. i tend now after dozens of machines to avoid manual machining at all, just assembly of outsourced parts. regarding a v4 extruder I cant find any other way than buying just an industrial casting for the screw mount / thrust bearing / motor mount, these are relative cheap compared to trying this in a metal shop, resulting in way less at the end. 30 mm diameter, then we are at 3-5 Kw, I guess. 3-5 Kw is the standard contract limit of households, after 10 Kw you need a license/permission from the authorities btw.

starter
15/05/2019 at 14:41
0

Extruder Development V4

 

Hello Everyone,

My name is Vincent, mechanical engineer just arrived 2 months ago in PP V4. I am working currently with dutch engineer @peter-bas on the extruder V4.(Nate @cymek left for PP pilots in Maldives).

The current V2 extruder has been designed with an emphasis on low-cost to build, ease of finding parts and basic tools. The extruder V4 will be designed with an emphasis on reliability, predictability in function and build quality in mind.

warrior
18/02/2019 at 17:57
0

Hello everyone, sadly @cymek has had to return to the US of A. The main man working on development of the extrusion machine is now @peter-bas, who has been making some improvements to monitor the machine.

If you’re curious to see or have any ideas / suggestions with regards to the  techniques – check out these topics:

Extrusion Moulds
Beam Production

starter
18/02/2019 at 08:42
0

hola
i used that system for my sawmill carriage. It can be replicate at any scale and can move 2 machines with 1 motor. very eficient and easy to make
slds
cecilio
Honduras

starter
08/01/2019 at 00:00
0

OK, so “manchon hidraulico” in english is “jaw coupling” (the literal translation from spanish comes out as “hydraulic stain”). Anyway, from what I can tell, they aren’t designed to be used as a clutch (pleae correct me if I’m wrong about this). I guess they might be OK if the machine was stopped each time they were engaged or disengaged…. Any thoughts?
This video shows something that would work well, but I can’t find anyone selling these, so I’d have to make it from scratch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z93j7EaOV6Y Does this mechnaims have a name? It’s kinda like a dog clutch I think.

starter
07/01/2019 at 23:58
0

OK, so “manchon hidraulico” in english is “jaw coupling” (the literal translation from spanish comes out as “hydraulic stain”). Anyway, from what I can tell, they aren’t designed to be used as a clutch (pleae correct me if I’m wrong about this). I guess they might be OK if the machine was stopped each time they were engaged or disengaged…. Any thoughts?
This video shows something that would work well, but I can’t find anyone selling these, so I’d have to make it from scratch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z93j7EaOV6Y Does this mechnaims have a name? It’d kinda like a dog clutch I think.

starter
02/01/2019 at 23:40
0

Thanks cymek. For my project I’m planning to transport the machines for the UK to Uganda, so saving weight and size is very helpful.
I’m thinking through some different options to use the same motor for both the shredder and the extruder. My current plan is to use a very simple gear box with 3 gears, one on the main axel, one on the drill and a third in between then which can be moved in and out of alignment with the other 2. This would start and stop the extruder. To star and stop the shredder I’m thinking about sliding the shredder box (possibly on drawer runners) back and forth to engage and disenegage with the main axle. It should be possible to connect the shredder box to the middle gear so that it is not possible to have both machines running at the same time. I’m not sure if that is desirable or not.
I wondered about using a bike chain rather than gears, but I suspect that the torque would be enough to stretch or possibly snap the chain?
To connect the shredder to the axle I’d imagined something like the “manchon hidraulico” but I don’t know the english term for them (does anyone here know?). My plan is to make amould for one so I can make it on the injection machine. The idea behnd this is:
1) I can design the connetor to break at a given torque so that the shredder doesn’t break.
2) If/when it breaks I can make another one with the injection machine.

helper
02/01/2019 at 18:29
0

cymek 
mybe you can use a hidraulic join!!! for use one motor for 2 machines.. mybe.. y can’t probe !!! in spanish its called “manchon hidraulico”

Attachments:
starter
29/12/2018 at 16:36
0

Hey @ewanenj!

I am a big fan of having one motor for both machines. Would you think up some easy detachable coupling method? Or have a transmission turn both things at once?

I could see this being very annoying, but if you have a small space / motor budget, maybe it makes sense.

starter
28/12/2018 at 13:10
0

Great to see these updates. The power rating of the motors you’re using is much higher than the 375W that was in the old designs; this makes me think that it would be worth considering using the same motor as the shredder.
I’m almost finished making a shredder with a 2.5kW single phase motor (based on this post https://davehakkens.nl/community/forums/topic/shredder-bulid-idea/ )
If you’re now using a 2.2kW motor for the extrusion machine then I’m thinking I could save money, resources and shipping weight by using the same motor for both. Of course, the energy consumption will be a little higher, but from what you’re saying, it sounds like the productivity of the machine increases too. Unless anyone here can see a flaw in this approach I’ll crack on and let you know how it goes…

starter
17/12/2018 at 17:42
0

Update to whole thread: I am working with talented designer / maker from South Africa – Tim Slab

He will be populating a topic on extruder products with all the things we are making.

Here is the link:

Extrusion Machine Products (v4)

starter
17/12/2018 at 17:35
0

@btmetz

Nice! looking good / nice fix for the screw coupling, makes sense. We have essentially the same thing (hex hole) but with some set screws, just to make sure.

We have sectioned every beam we produce to check out the inside. We have mixed results, but this can be the product of many different variables, such as plastic used (because beams require bulk amounts, we use what we can get, this is sometimes mixed material / material that has non plastic things in it), speed is another variable, as is heat and pressure.

But pressure in my opinion is the greatest factor. If you can put resistance on the plastic as it forms in the mold, you get less air bubbles. We just use a wood plunger that fits the mold, and hang weights on the tail that sticks out.

Viewing 30 replies - 1 through 30 (of 42 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

Support our projects on Patreon so we can keep developing 💪