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Forum issues

This topic contains 20 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  Dave Hakkens 4 weeks ago.

1
Mick Percy deeemm

Forum issues

21/07/2019 at 16:45

On numerous occasions I have posted replies to topics that have not displayed. It gives me no error message, no indication of what the issue is, nothing. I have then tried to repost only to be told that I have already posted the same thing. This is getting pretty frustrating. I’m at least 110% sure I am not alone in this issue.
I’ve just spent ages trying to post an answer to the shredder auto reverse thread, including a schematic. It’s a simple solution that will work for most cases using an inverter, it just uses two relays. No electronics and no encoder pulse wheel are required. I am sure that people would be interested in it. I’m very happy to share my knowledge, this kind if stuff is what I do for a living.
But, my post does not display. Even though the post summary shows my post as the last post. So after wasting far too much time trying to edit my post so that it’s not detected as a duplicate I’ve simply given up trying to share it. My solution is now lost. (it’s actually right there in your SQL database if you know where to look).

So Instead I’ve decided to write THIS post. to let you know of the problem.
I want to let you know that WordPress is NOT a good solution for this kind of site. It’s great for sharing photos of your spoon collection or cake recipes, but it does not scale very well into a community site like this one. There are other much better scripts for running forums with, you should really consider using one of them. Most of them include migrators to migrate your SQL Database so that you get to retain all of your existing data.

So if this keeps happening I’m simply going to stop contributing. You may think so what. Who cares about one contributor, this guy is full of himself. But what if I am that one guy that has the solution that you need? What if I’m the guy who can build you a shredder that’s a fraction of the price with no laser cutting required and heaps more efficient? What if I’m the guy who can help you achieve CE certification? What if I’m the guy who can help you with whatever problem it is that you are having. What if it’s not me but the next fella?
What if?!
What if you don’t fix your forums?

What if you never find out.

 

Please do something about it guys. I, like most people who give freely of their time, do not have free time to give. So when the time that we give ends up being wasted, it makes us less likely to want to give so freely in the future.

Remember,  there’s no such thing as free time, everything has a cost.

 

/DM

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In reply to: Forum issues

warrior
21/07/2019 at 20:35
1

I think creating offline and pasting in any significant content is what I’ll do going forward. It is not clear to me what the future of the forum is. I think there is some effort to save and organize some of the technical content on other sites.

In reply to: Forum issues

21/07/2019 at 20:46
0

Hey user Nr. 102, thanks for noticing this piece of crap software as well. I am afraid that all the skills & resources are spent on chocolate, collect donations for more chocolate. I even committed a fix but seems almighty Eindhoven is too busy with all the chocolate. It’s true that all 18 issues could have been fixed in a day; and another day to add some minimum quality for authors and the community but again; with soo much chocolate, who wants to write stupid PHP code ? Why spending 2000$ for some exorbitant awesome forum add-ons if you can buy chocolate from Switzerland ?
For now I can only recommend to signup on precious-plastic.org; your Fort Nnox for content and link it here 🙂

In reply to: Forum issues

starter
22/07/2019 at 02:20
2

s2019

creating offline and pasting in any significant content is what I’ll do going forward.

I already do this, it’s force of habit, the issue is when it doesn’t post correctly. WordPress detects your second attempt at trying to post the same content as a duplicate post and refuses to post it. It is a ‘feature’.

plastichub
Not sure I understand. But in essence noone should be writing any PHP for this forum. It’s pretty basic stuff and there are a plethora of free solutions already out there. I run a bunch of community sites also with thousands of users and have none of these issues, simply as I use the right tools for the job. Don’t waste your time trying to fix WordPress so that it acts something like phpBB, it is a complete waste of resources. Just use a proprietary forum solution instead. It can still be made to look the same as it currently does with simple CSS overrides. Any basic webmin should be able to do this work.

 

These issues are as a result of reaching the limitations of WordPress and trying to make it do something it was never intended to do. Fixing this issue by hacking the code just pushes the inevitable down the road a bit further, it also makes maintaining the site that little bit harder as you also have to maintain the hacks at each update. By the time you have half a dozen of these hacks, on top of any mods you might have carried out, the site simply becomes unmanageable, the wheels fall off and things snowball out of control.

 

Wordpress is great for blogs, managing posts from one user, it’s basically a glorified dear-diary. However, it falls down when this functionality is bent into trying to be a forum. It will always be a compromise.

 

I also notice that the devs are busy trying to recreate Inventables with One Army, Personally I’m not sure on the wisdom of this move but I guess time will tell, I understand why. I only hope that they are not trying to do it with WordPress. If they are it will be fraught with the same issues as this forum. (It actually looks like it is using StackIdeas EasyDiscuss which is good).

 

I like the idea of https://precious-plastic.org/ but I’m not sure if I am invested in it (at this time). I’m trying to undertake some projects of my own. They do align with PP and the PP philosophy and could augment it, but for the time being I’m developing them outside of the PP framework.

 

Some questions: Who owns precious-plastic.org? I assume it’s you plastichub. What is your affiliation with PP? Where does this site fit into the PP framework? Is it ‘authorised’? I do not see any links to it on PP. Does this not simply replicate the information already available at preciousplastic.com? If so what is its purpose? Why not simply contribute to preciousplastic.com, those guys always seem to be calling out for help.

 

Which brings me back to this… I am happy to share some of my results here and impart some of my knowledge, which is why I am here, posting it. But if I keep having these issues then I will simply stop. I am sure I am not alone.

 

/DM

In reply to: Forum issues

starter
22/07/2019 at 03:33
1

Actually, I’ve just taken a look at the GitHub repo for OneArmy. They are indeed trying to fix this issue, but the solution is basically scratch writing an entire platform. That path is folly. Been there. Done that. The amount of time that is needed to maintain a custom platform like that is immense. It’s a full time job and a management nightmare, especially when key people move on, which when you are not paying them is inevitable. Softies cost big $$$’s. Good ones cost even more.

I think that this choice is misguided. You don’t need a new platform to fix these issues and you also don’t need a new platform to unite people in a common cause. It’s not the platform that unites people, it is the shared ideals, shared ethics and common goals that brings people together.

Why reinvent the wheel? The solution will not be any better than what is already freely available. It’s not going to be taken up by third parties and if it is, then you need to invest resources supporting it, all the time this takes resources away from where they are better used. And when the wheels fall off down the track, as they inevitably will, you are right there back at step one, with a broken forum, wondering what to do. If wordpress cannot manage to provide a stable solution with all of the resources they have at their disposal, and all of the development time they have invested, what makes you think that you can do any better in such a short space of time? < (rhetorical question)

What happens when the code that you are using needs to be updated? or becomes obsolete? Things move pretty fast in this world. If you use a third party solution, all of that hard work maintaining and updating the core code is taken care of by others, it therefore has little impact on your resources, all you need is a basic webmin to take care of things. Anyone can do this.

So why embark on such a resource intensive activity? You’ve just stopped being a serial entrepreneur and become a cat herder. (as that’s pretty much what managing software engineers is akin to). Softies will always want to do this kind of work as it feed their egos. The big issue is that unless they have previously managed a project like this, they have no actual idea of the amount of work involved to get a working stable platform. And even if they do, they have probably never had to maintain such a platform. Contributing to an existing project and creating a new one are very different animals. What happens when they go back to whatever it was they were doing before this?

Looking at some of the pathway tasks you still have to complete, there is stuff like user avatars outstanding. This is basic stuff that should be part of a pre-canned user management framework. If you still have stuff like this outstanding and you are currently supposed to be in beta, then your have no hope in hell of meeting a 2020 launch, if it ever gets completed at all. By the time you have it working, it will all need updating again. Just take a look at ANY open source software project. Take a look at their resources. Take a look at their roadmap and history. And then consider the amount of work involved.

Much better to adopt an existing solution and extend it to do what you need. The reality is that what you are doing is not new, there are a bunch of solutions already out there that will pretty much do what you need out of the box.

Sorry if I come across as cynical, but I’ve been right there. Both as a softie and as a project manager. You need to consider that if you cannot manage a simple wordpress site and fix these issues with the help and assistance of the wordpress community (massive), how are you going to manage and maintain a custom platform that has basically no support community. (another rhetorical question).

I think you are lining yourself up to fail.

My advice is this. Stick to hardware. Tangible solutions. That’s what you are good at. I understand the lure of what you are doing, but rest assured. It is a white elephant.

/DM

In reply to: Forum issues

warrior
22/07/2019 at 05:39
1

@deeemm , I don’t have a SW background so I won’t comment on the forum/web approach, but I see some of the same philosophy on the hardware development side. The V4 plan to me reads like a summary of topics from a brainstorming session rather than a development plan or roadmap. From there it seems to transition to developing homegrown hardware concepts without doing much of the upfront engineering. The fact that each of the developments often depends on short term sequential contributions makes bypassing the engineering a difficult path. There also isn’t much documentation that is published at the changeovers making it a difficult way to do technology development.
I wish the PP group luck in trying a new way to develop technology but I’m glad some of the forum content is being archived.

In reply to: Forum issues

22/07/2019 at 10:22
0

@deeemm; you’re getting off-topic 🙂 However, pp.org is mainly volunteer work and financed by plastic-hub.com (not there yet); the site should be ready for public in Sept. and is basically PP without all the ideology / cult stuff; unbiased and unfiltered. And yeah, we’re obviously not affiliated with Eindhoven, in many ways 🙂 Regarding the tech stack, yes I am also just pimping WordPress with some custom plugins (at worst);  it’s basically all there and the forum software was and is to easy to fix or to replace, but hey; with so much chocolate 🙂
@s2019; yeah, I am working right now on a table to list, compare, analyze all v3 and v4 machines to see what actually happened and go from there. Because you guys are right about this, at the end it’s the machines; the business end of this project. Problem is apparently that they confuse their own audiences. I could possibly write an entire book about what went wrong but I stopped bothering; there is too much work ahead to get at least a little and healthy status quo.

In reply to: Forum issues

starter
22/07/2019 at 11:39
1

Yeah I’m just ranting. It’s not my project, they can do as they please. But it is a shame to see so much energy being wasted on something that is essentially unnecessary. Seems like a lot of misplaced effort to me.

I don’t really see the value in these project kamp / one army / phoneblox / story hopper / etc projects. PP has really struck a chord with people, it is this that has got people engaged. But this other stuff, it’s just going to end up losing people’s interest. The stats are right there in post counts. People come here for PP not this other stuff. They should concentrate on their customer-base. Better to do one thing well, rather than lots of things only half well.

Having taken a look at the OneArmy code I can see that the forums are not going to get fixed any time soon. Guess I’ll see how frustrated I get posting there.

In reply to: Forum issues

22/07/2019 at 12:02
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@deeemm, yeah, that happens when a project gets overwhelmed by too many cooks. Dealing with volunteers is a pretty difficult task; I’ve never seen this going well and here we are. I think I already suggested this but Dave should have handed this over to a senior/veteran or keep doing just as before. For now I can only suggest to write your content in a safe place as instructables.com or on our site; we focus mainly on DIY and semi-professional plastic recycling equipment.
g

In reply to: Forum issues

starter
22/07/2019 at 12:28
1

Managing any project is easy, if you know how. It just takes a few simple tools and a few basic management strategies, but project direction does need some vision & direction to set the path, and this usually comes from above.
I actually think that the project direction for PP is not too bad, they are trying to overcome the shortcomings with a redesign of current equipment and also trying to increase the scale of what it is possible to make. Both of which are logical pathways to take. They are also putting some more product design ideas out there, as the community is not contributing in this respect. This is obviously going to increase appeal. The work they are doing with creating large sheets is really going to attract a different type of end user. It’s all good and positive.

Best of all they have investment from volunteers too, although some of these seem to have been given too much of a free reign with what they are doing. But this is not necessarily wrong or bad, sometimes good things come from the leftfield. Often it’s good not to place restraints on what people are allowed to do just because you are too close to something. It’s actually good that Dave has let go and letting people take the reins from a design perspective.

I guess we will all see where it ends up when V4 is released.

In reply to: Forum issues

22/07/2019 at 21:17
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Always happy to meet people with shades on;at least a little uplifting. Just sit down for a moment and ask your self what could have been done for 150K in all regards:  machines, infrastructure, documents, merchandise, network, …. v4 won’t address even a fraction of the PP problems. A few guys already said it on social network; 300k down the drain … The only nice thing I’ve spotted are a few vague product candidates, even though only for a tiny fraction of brave craft men. Anyways, I am near finish with the v3/v4 machine research.

In reply to: Forum issues

starter
23/07/2019 at 01:48
1

I have yet to watch the video where they explain what they have done with the first half of their funding, Maybe I should. Maybe that would cause me to judge (I’m sure I will have an opinion lol).
Of course everyone has perfect clarity of vision in hindsight. It is very easy to be critical of the work of others, but the truth is that given the opportunity most people would not be able to do any better.
Going to watch that video now…

In reply to: Forum issues

23/07/2019 at 01:56
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do; and that’s also easy said, dude. If you’d build that stuff for their users you may start understanding … read the comments btw.

In reply to: Forum issues

starter
23/07/2019 at 03:53
2

If you’d build that stuff for their users you may start understanding

Not sure what you mean.  I sense a lot of contempt in the way you talk about the PP project, but I am yet to understand why.

After watching the video and reading the comments there’s a few things that stand out to me…

 

– I think that they have done quite a lot with the 150K so far. Given the infrastructure that they have to support, and workforce they have to both house and manage simply managing to survive for 6 months is a fair achievement. Running any business is hard, hats off to them. The transparency of they are doing is also good.
But. I think that there are two aspects that they have invested in that are not wise choices:
1. One army. This is a distraction. whilst it *may* solve the forum issues (I refer to my previous comments) it is not actually necessary to address the forum issues, and so is completely superfluous.  The ‘how-to’ part of one army that they discuss should be a hard coded part of the PP site – they already have this with the tutorials, most of which are in video format, you cannot really improve on that. Dave correctly identifies PP community as the valuable asset in all of this, but creating these collaborative spaces is simply a case of creating another sub-forum, it doesn’t need three or more guys working on dedicated code to leverage the power of the community. I think that onearmy is a new vision for Dave, but it’s a little misguided and only tenuously related to PP, which is what has given him the capital for it in the first place. I would be very interested to know how much this particular aspect has cost, both in monetary terms and also in taking away key resources from other more relevant PP tasks. But with that said, if Dave thinks it will help move the business forwards then he is within his rights to invest in it. Speculation and forward investment is a part of business.

2. Robotic sorting. This is actually my background – I’m an industrial controls engineer by profession. I’ve spent the past 30 odd years designing, programming and installing special purpose machinery for clients all over the world, predominantly robot based. What they are doing is a cool project, and the guys working on it are probably pretty smart, but it’s another white elephant. You can pretty much put a standard price on single cell automation – it’s 250k euros. Thats the average price for your average single robot cell, with full safety and basic tooling. And that’s the budget version too. Who is going to invest in that? No one, that’s who. Running my own business, I can actually say that you have enough trouble getting established businesses with multi million turnovers investing in this kind of equipment. You will definitely not get a startup plastics recycling business to invest in this kind of tech, it’s too expensive. It’s also way outside of the PP demographic, if they have the cash and inclination to invest in robotic sorting solutions, I can guarantee that they won’t be buying PP machines for their business, they’ll buy commercial solutions. But, that said, I’m also having a hard time seeing where this has a commercial application, it will never be fast enough to sort plastics on a commercial scale.

Madeska? The girl who does the visual marketing stuff. She is the linchpin to the entire PP success. The reason that the community get behind PP is that it is branded correctly. Yes more than anything PP is actually a brand – it is not known for it’s plastics recycling capabilities, it’s known for its ideals and being an enabler. It is the brand that builds trust and confidence, this is why people get on board. There’s lots of talk about how the PP machines are not what they are ‘sold’ to be, why do you think that this is? It’s because the PP brand is super successful in convincing people that these machines are the answer to global plastics pollution. If PP want to grow, it is investment in the brand that will make happen.

– The Bazaar. Lots of complaints about the Bazaar here in the forums. The youtube comments about capitalism also made me laugh. Why shouldn’t PP be monetised? If it doesn’t self sustain it will die. It’s simple economics. The interesting stats for me were that globally there are 250 machine builders 350 workspaces and 1000 potential workspaces, and that the Bazaar has a gross turnover of 20k per month. This echoes exactly what I noticed about the Bazaar. There are more people making and selling machines than there are making and selling plastic items. To me this simply says that at this stage PP is a community of machine makers, not a community of recyclers. I think that this is also echoed here in the forums where most of the discussion revolves around the machines.

– Business plans. Again lots of negativity about the business side of PP, but if they are not sustainable by the time that the rest of the 300k runs out, they will go the same way as makerspace. I think they are going about it the right way, it’s never easy trying to analyse how to monetise something like PP, especially where its success is based on moral and ethical righteousness.

 

/DM

In reply to: Forum issues

starter
23/07/2019 at 04:23
2

This is interesting.

This popped up as the advert at the beginning of the PP video when I watched it.

https://4ocean.com/

These guys sell plastic bracelets and invest that money into actual plastics cleanup. How is it that this is possible? Just look at the infrastructure these guys have. Boats, cars, ocean vessels, geesh, that’s a lot of infrastructure to own and maintain from just selling bracelets.

Why aren’t PP doing something like this? I mean, they don’t even have to outsource manufacture, they have that aspect covered. They already have an online store, they already have a marketing department (go Madeska!!)
I think it’s simply because they are completely focused on making machines.

PP could also leverage their brand in each of those 350 workspaces and in turn each of the 1000 potential workspaces when they come online. Kind of like a franchise without a buy-in, where the cost of entry is a percentage of profit in exchange for being able to use the branding, be listed in a PP directory, being able to say that whatever % of each sale goes back into fighting the global plastics problem, be included in PP marketing and advertising. And fees for those workspaces that are not simply boutiques this could be waived. Of course if you want to the the PP machine designs there’s nothing from stopping you setting up without using the PP brand, but the most valuable asset that PP has, is their brand and they are not using it to its full potential.

If PP start generating a revenue from this kind of income, instead of just investing in these machines, they could invest in some of the other problems facing plastics. What about plastics recovery from beaches / the ocean / rivers / etc. People are already doing this, but it’s still not an accessible technology. Why not mobilise shredders and then post-sort the plastics using other means? PP are very good at making this kind of tech accessible. And this is the stuff that could really make a difference on the front line. It could even help people like 4ocean be more efficient in what they do.

In reply to: Forum issues

23/07/2019 at 10:46
0

this reads like church speech 🙂
there is just some problem with all that ‘righteous’ things :
– recycling isn’t saving the planet nor it’s tackling the plastic pollution; even for cleaning up the oceans it’s too late, darling; it’s pretty much the lesser choice in waste management.
– PP is becoming a company; not a global open-source project, also kneeing down to monetary principles
– it’s not sustainable at all; you need to invest way more than you get out. We tried hard and we see this rather a voluntary activity. We spent a lot of time correcting this hilarious buzz word talks on the main page; it’s full of lies and to me it’s abuse of good intentions.
– there is no ‘community’ per-se, it’s just a loose pool of groups & people trying to do their best and it’s rather temporary; folks dont stay long with PP; you wanna make plastic tiles all day long ? It’s a very demanding activity …
– it’s not even a real brand; for this you need infrastructure; human resources, …

better you consider this rather a hobby

by ‘If you’d build that stuff for their users you may start understanding’ I mean :
design, develop and produce machines for the PP community; you will come a long a lot of problems and you will have to start questioning things, especially if you want to put some love in there, or at least you have some dignity about what you’re going hand over to an innocent user for big $$

I am tired of this 🙂

In reply to: Forum issues

starter
23/07/2019 at 15:14
1

Thanks for the clarification.

 

I’m going to comment on each of your points.

 

Recycling – PP is never going to fix the issue of plastics pollution on its own, it is just one contributor in amongst the many that are trying to do something rather than nothing. But why knock someone for trying? It’s a great idea, even if it’s little more than a curiosity or conversation starter, it’s still raising awareness and getting people involved. If you disagree with what they are doing, why do you have so much time and energy invested into it? It makes no sense. What is YOUR solution that is better? What is it that YOU are doing?

 

Open Source – When was PP ever a global open source project in the sense that you describe? Just because someone releases some plans under an open source license does not make them a global open source initiative. As I have said before, PP is NOT RepRap, it’s never been set up like this. PP is not what you think it is. I don’t believe that it ever has been.

Dave Hakkens is a serial entrepreneur, you can see this with the plethora of projects that he has tried to develop. It’s just that this particular project has grown legs and gone a little bit viral, which is a great thing and he is trying to do something with that momentum. Unfortunately due to the subject, a project like this also has the interest of of a bunch of people who seem to think that life should be free and that sentiment tarnishes what he is trying to achieve. Geesh, even if it was set up as a not-for-profit charity organisation, it is still a business, it is still allowed to make money. Else how does the fella make a living? How does this project sustain itself?

 

Sustainability – Disagree with you here. Plenty of people actually making a success out of this. It is a sustainable endeavor from a small business perspective. But as with all things, you only get out, what you put in. Of course this is no different from any business. If you’ve gone into a business only for it to fail, that is not the fault of the person selling you the machine. it just means that your business plan was no good and your market research bad. Please consider that not all people are cut out to run a business.

 

Community – This IS the community. it’s a bunch of people, just like you and me that are invested in the PP process. That’s what it is. Nothing more. We are here to talk about the PP process and machines, how to use them, improve them, share ideas, well you get the idea, all of that stuff.

Being a member of this forum does not make you part of the PP development team, it does not mean that anyone at PP has to take any notice of what you say about PP or its products, no matter how relevant you may think your contributions are. I keep saying it but it is not RepRap. They are not going to validate your opinion for you. Nor am I.

 

For the most part the community seems to be machine builders looking for a quick buck by selling someone else’s design and then complaining that this design is not what they thought is was, as they sold something without actually using it themselves, and without being aware of their obligations relating to warranty, merchantability, compliance and safety.  It’s comical that these same vendors then want to blame the designer for their lack of foresight (ironically the same lack of foresight that causes people to going into business without making a business plan). It’s just naivety.

 

The PP machines were designed to be built by the end user, not a middle man. The PP process is there to enable people to undertake the activities of building a machine and making / selling recycled items themselves. That’s the vision, same one it’s always been. PP ask for nothing in return. Nothing. NOTHING!. I look at this generosity and the fact that the design are given freely and I immediately think of the GPL terms and conditions, specifically those that say – “these designs are supplied as-is, with no warranty of any kind, either expressed or implied”.  And you know what? This is the same for ALL open source projects!!! By releasing the designs you admonish yourself of all liability.
So why is it that the machine builders complain that there are issues, and then try to blame PP for the problems they have with their machines? It’s simple. It’s because they just want to shift the blame for their lack of foresight, lack of experience, lack of business plan and the cost of their oversight somewhere else other than where it actually lies. They get an issue with a customers machine, the customer takes this issue up with the machine vendor (as they should) and the vendor is not set up to deal with it. They are not invested into their product as it’s not their design. They did not consider that they need to support it. They didn’t test the machine design or validate it.
The way I see these issues are that none of them are the fault of the designer. All of these issues fall squarely on the shoulders of the machine vendor.

If Joe Bloggs downloads the plans, builds a machine, but then has an issue with it, they seek help on the forum. The community help them to resolve the issue. They move on.

 

If Joe bloggs buys a machine from a vendor, but then has an issue with it, they don’t go to the forum to seek help, they go to the vendor. The vendor has a LEGAL

obligation to supply a machine that is fit for purpose, meets safety legislation, does what the vendor said it would do and is provided with a warranty. None of this has anything to do with the designer. Even if the vendor had engaged the designer specifically to design the machine as a paid job, it is still the responsibility of the vendor. If someone builds a machine exactly to the PP design, that they then sell to a customer, and that customer injures themselves on the machine, and the injury is the result of bad machine design, the vendor is 100% responsible. It has NOTHING to do with PP.

 

As a machine vendor the buck stops with you. You cannot blame anyone else. This is the law. Whether it is AS4024 / ISO12100 for machinery design or AS3000 / IEE 17th edition / BS7671 for electrical design, it is entirely down to the vendor to validate this. It has nothing to do with the designer. NOTHING.

 

To be honest, I’m getting a little tired of reading about this ‘us and them’ diatribe. I don’t mean to cause offense to anyone about this, but why beat a drum that just continually pokes sticks at what PP is trying to achieve. If people don’t agree with the way PP do things, or even think that the overall idea of PP is viable why are they even here? If they are not on board with what PP are doing, why don’t they go and do their own thing? Surely with all of that advice they have to give, they can do a better job.

 

But then, you said it yourself best… it’s all about selling machines to innocent users for big $$, and PP is where there are 1000 potential customers.

 

In reply to: Forum issues

23/07/2019 at 15:37
0

alright, thanks a lot; I agree with the most; i am just wonder what you would suggest to the machine builder? What I read on the front page and your comments is ‘go, eat sh**, believe our lies, and pay us because we’re f** famous, and anyone who’s asking or criticizing will find them-self on TV with a nice smear campaign’.

i am here for the science, the problem; but definitely not for some bollocks who trick in users with bs** and make others pay to finish pr rectify their work; period.

let’s move on; there is insane work ahead; i am so happy to contribute.

In reply to: Forum issues

23/07/2019 at 15:53
0

btw. you seem to like the word ‘vendor’ so much. let me tell you, there are 2 or 3 in the entire PP eco system who could afford paying something into their retirement, may be even a 800$ life-insurance, and there is so much more to pay to make this a healthy business … that’s why i suggest you to think for a moment and step in their shoes; just for a little moment.

if you start building a project like this on lies, beliefs,… – and there are many – then you don’t need to wonder that everybody gets burned or laughed at outside of PP.

In reply to: Forum issues

warrior
23/07/2019 at 17:41
1

I would like to see one un-subsidized workspace post that they are profitable. I appreciate @jegor-m briefly posting his experience https://davehakkens.nl/community/forums/topic/hello-from-estonia/page/4/ . He makes beautiful, very marketable clocks, and yet just covers the rent on his space.

The throughput limits and the labor intensive process makes sustainability challenging.
Given typical shop hourly rates, I don’t think the machine builders are much better off.
It is best to consider the PP download kit an instructables and assume you are on your own for safety and financial viability.

In reply to: Forum issues

warrior
23/07/2019 at 19:57
5

Thanks for taking the time to formulate your words @deeemm. Useful information, we’re quite aware of the bad things in the forums. It’s really annoying. We’re working on fixing it, however it turns out the be quite a complex thing to work on. But we are really re-thinking what online collaboration should look like, what are the tools we need, what is already out there in which gaps we need to fill. Quite a big challenge, but also an interesting one because it would make it much easier in the future for communities to collaborate. Here an alpha version of our current status. So thanks for caring and letting us know, sorry its taking us some time.

@s2019. We have a few members around the world that are able to sustain on PP. But indeed little, way to little. So that’s why providing numbers and concrete business models is such a crucial topic for V4. In October we will release many new tools that should make it much more doable to achieve this. Until that point you rely on your own knowledge or some tips and tricks in the forums here. so indeed: It is best to consider the PP download kit an instructables and assume you are on your own for safety and financial viability.

On another note.
I’ve been following this topic, like most of the topics out here. But didn’t interact because I would now plastichub would get into this state again.

For anyone following this thread. @plastichub is our recurring forum member Guenter, under yet another account.  In the last weeks we’ve had many dedicated forum members leaving and giving the feedback that they don’t like how the forums are being dominated by this one person. Killing the entire positive mindset of people like @deeemm that want to constructively help out PP.

Guenter, we’ve talked about this many times before, many warnings. So i’m going to freeze you account so you can cool down. Next week you can use it again.

After that, stay on topic, no poking for fights, keep your personal frustrations out of here. Or share your thoughts on pp-org and build your own version of Precious Plastic according to your own guidelines there. But here is not the place for this kind of interaction.

i will also close this topic, feedback is noted!

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