We've just launched our map. Add yourself by clicking here!

close

Official statement about extrusion to filament

Tagged: 

This topic contains 45 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by  pporg 3 days ago.

1
pporg pporg

Official statement about extrusion to filament

03/05/2019 at 13:34

Hey there,
we would like to know the official statement about whether the extruder can extrude filament. To me it’s no but only because I don’t know a printer which can print certain recycled plastic. I know of pellet printers but that’s about it.

I am asking because we receive emails from clients and til now we still can’t answer them correctly.

Obviously the whole topic needs a lot of research and development and I am sure someone will figure this out (or not) one day. I am also aware that a ‘filament mile’ is around 2-5 meters long ..

So please if anyone could bring light into this story, we’d be very happy to have finally an answer for the users.

45 replies
4 subscribers
1 saved
1 likes
sort on most likes
warrior
03/05/2019 at 14:37
1

ok, sorry to bring this up all over again but it keeps bumping all over the place, thats what we found :

– 4+ facebook entries asking the same, no answer
– 2-3+ instagram entries, asking the same, no answer
– around 5+ forum entries, asking the same, going nowhere but confirming a no, no answer
– around 20+ emails, asking the same, humble answer from us : NO

thanks, honestly, this story makes us and PP not looking ‘very well’
g

warrior
03/05/2019 at 16:05
1

ok then, I think making a complete dossier about this story would be still the best; i guess pointing to ‘may be possible, but with lots of efforts and restrictions’ could still support PPs claim about this, plus it may engage creative folks – whose who ask : universities, fablabs – to get something done 🙂
deal,
g

helper
04/05/2019 at 07:59
1

I think it’s impossible to actually make an official statement other then ‘it depends’, followed by a list of conditions, a large part of which are local, as like with water, plastics are not absolutely the same everywhere you go…

Same goes for 3D-printers…

 

I think a better way to go would be to start a community listing of materials that work or don’t work. The first is what you are looking for, but the second will save a lot of time in prevented failed experiments.

 

So maybe start a Topic?

“Experiences with extrusion to filament”?

(does this already exist?)

 

So yes, it can be done (filament exists and is plastic), it however depends on some very big but’s…

(queue music)

 

warrior
04/05/2019 at 09:06
2

Thanks Donald,
thanks for your input. Yeah as you say, its a lot of really big ifs. It was rather about giving those people who would like to buy the official extrusion machine from the bazar a definite answer. From what you suggest, it would be a “may be, if you put a year or so of research and development into it since nothing really is done yet ..” 🙂

Btw., the topics are there already in the forum, but none of them could provide a clear prove, quite the contrary though.
thanks again,
g

helper
04/05/2019 at 09:27
1

Indeed,

but the first one to DO the research (and share it) would be a true community hero in my book.

 

On a sidenote, the extruder itself of course basically already IS a large scale printhead, similar to the printheads you want to use to 3D print.

 

Maybe somebody is already working on a ‘3D extruder’?

I’ve seen large size 3d-printers work with concrete and there are allready chairs being printed in plastic this way, so why not build an extruder sized 3D printer, and start printing the real thing, instead of just the models?

 

After this it’s just a matter of scaling down the machine to create a ‘raw plastic’ 3d-printer, skipping all the “ifs and buts” attached to commercial printer’s filament needs…

 

warrior
04/05/2019 at 09:40
1

yeah, there is indeed work done in this direction (but not filament per se). I also tend to skip the whole extrusion -> filament story since its easier to go for pellets or grinded PET.
The point is really to give those folks a definite and realistic answer which could satisfy their mostly short-term intentions .. In this very frame (as machine builder and PP supporter) we found ourself now in the position of rectifying @davehakkens claims/suggestions he placed everywhere (filament spools). Its ok to say you could, but its hole different story when you realize there is no support/evidence for this claims and you have to put a year of work into it …  makes sense from a visionary point of view but even though, it has to be realistic for those who want to throw 1000 – 2000 Euro at it, by tomorrow, mostly looking for grants right afterwards. I mean its like saying, hey I have invented metal, all you need to do is to build a rocket out of it, lol.

g

helper
04/05/2019 at 10:00
2

On the other hand: Buying an Hammer does not make you a Carpenter, even though Carpenters have Hammers…

 

The machines are just tools, and there is ‘proof of concept’ filament out there, so it can be done. Getting there is the learning curve.

 

Sounds like you are not looking for the statement, but for somebody to write the missing manual…

I guess page 1 would read: “be patient, it is easy to learn, but hard to master making filament. Luckily you can recycle your failed experiments to start again, and again… and again if need be.

Most difficult and costly step you have already taken though by buying/building the machine. Now all you need is experience. Some say at least a year of failed experiments is needed before you can consistently make your own filament.

This is still considerably less than the 10.000 hours needed to master playing the violin. Let’s get started!”

warrior
04/05/2019 at 10:14
1

o cmon, all i am trying here is damage reduction as best we can, for us, PP and folks who naively take all for granted. to put it simple : you can’t simply abuse people good intention by saying there is the filament coming from the extrusion machine, now please make it work since we don’t know it actually works. given the ongoing silence toward EVERYBODY who asked for specifics and evidence, you can call this by it’s name : its a blatant and irresponsible lie, just like the material bills in the download kit.

ok, never mind. i think it’s easier and more suited/realistic to tell the people the truth: maybe, more likely not, given the constraints (quality demands) a regular printer has.

sorry for using direct language again.

helper
04/05/2019 at 11:06
2

I get your sentiment, but are you willing to accept this is NOT the same for everyone?

 

The limitations are NOT with the extruder, but with the printers that can work with the filaments that can be produced.

Also don’t forget a lot of these printers are proprietary, and actually build to NOT perfectly work with other filaments than the once they sell themselves.

 

“Filament” is the key word here.

It’s a ‘generalisation’ just like ‘plastic’.

With the right input, you can create the right output.

If you know what kind of filament you need, you can make it with the extruder, as long as you input the right ingredients. That’s the official statement.

 

You are now trying to blame the oven maker for burning your pizza.

The box clearly says “you can make delicious pizza’s with this oven”.

Did they blatantly lie?

Are they responsible for your supermarket selling you a sh***y pizza?

Or for your cooking book not giving you the correct instructions?

Or for you making a mistake?

 

They only have to proof it IS possible to create a delicious pizza with the oven, to make it true.

 

There IS filament on sale in the Bazar.

There ARE other people making filament with the extruder.

Or even simpler: The extruder IS a filament maker, plain and simple.

 

That being said, you should be able to expect a bit more support from a community that should be able to help you solve your problems (if only by buying your extruder because you are not happy).

I however don’t think you are ignored, I just think there’s almost nobody here…

 

 

warrior
04/05/2019 at 11:25
1

well, for the injection, shredder and compression there is evidence, just not for the filament. I can’t simply tell people to invent a new printer printer to support this claim, and throw an insane amount of time and resources at it. It has to be a realistic answer as for the other machines, can you make flower-pots, yes, can you make filament, maybe BUT ….. you need an industrial extrusion, and a regular filament mile …

and yes, i am sorry, if there is not a single evidence that the precious plastic extruder v3.0 can make filament, then its a lie, simple as that. if you have evidence, I am willing to look into it. I have excessive meetings with pros in this topic this days; they already told me in advance, it’s a joke/toy.

I need an answer not for us, i need it for folks who want to make filament and we have plenty asking. this is a real painful story to us. We have to decide between supporting a lie, or send them to uncharted waters. The fact that nobody managed to make filament with this machine (PP v3.0), especially from recycled plastic tells me a clear NO.

Please understand that we care a lot, especially if it comes to $$ and resources throwing at a pretty controversy topic. We simply don’t want to mess with other peoples life, especially looking at the circumstances they are in (not labs,..)

g

warrior
04/05/2019 at 11:27
1

there were enough people who tried, they all said NO; that’s why I am here now asking for rectification.

helper
04/05/2019 at 11:51
1

Okay, noted.

I have one advantage you don’t have, and that’s actually living in the Netherlands, in Eindhoven, so I can directly ask when I visit the PP headquarters…

 

For this please PM me your definition of the ‘filament’ needed and all the other information that might be relevant to be able to give you a clear answer, and I’ll try to get some answers directly.

Please take note though a clear definition of the actual ‘filament’ you are looking for is most important here, because strictly speaking it just means ‘thread’, and on here we must at least agree that the extruder indeed produces ‘a’ filament 😉

 

warrior
04/05/2019 at 12:15
2

thanks a lot, much appreciated. we need an answer for the obvious and suggested constraints :

– pp extruder v3, with industrial or auger drill
– filament usable by existing printers, hopefully in the same $$ ballpark as the extruder itself (1-2K)
– materials: recycled (includes ABS, PLA,…)

extra equipment/machinery excluded, obviously you have to add 2-4 meters of forming and temperature regulators.

most of folks who bounce here in our inbox want to sell filament , … saying you can make filament for experiments/hobby usage isn’t exactly enough though 🙂

g

dedicated
05/05/2019 at 12:54
1

there is plenty of info in the reprap forum about making filament.  it requires a second filament winding device.  plenty of designs on thingiverse, and around the web.  This guy has lots of designs out.

 

Sample video

 

warrior
05/05/2019 at 13:48
1

yes, please @btmetz, let’s narrow this to the constraints I’ve mentioned 🙂 We need here a clear YES, it’s ready to go, you can make filament, print it and sell it.
Of course DIYers have their machines to recycle their own scrap, the internet is full of that ( and i’ve seen it all). It’s about PP v3 extruder as said; thanks.

warrior
06/05/2019 at 11:15
2

We’re compiling all the information about filament making and the PP v3.0 extruder into a dossier here. If you have more to add or change, please sign up on the page to add your contributions on the subject. We’re fully booked this year with other developments but we try to update the PP v3.0 extruder as best we can to make this possible, finally : professional heat bands (100 E the piece), fans with fully integrated PID controllers, temperature and forming equipment after the extruder; our aim is to get this to work below 3000 Euro invest.

@donald

Attachments:
dedicated
06/05/2019 at 11:41
2

Yes and 99% of the actual extrusion for 3d printer filament is based on a add on filament winder.   the actual extrusion machine itself is not hard.  The real business comes in the winder as it pulls the filament to its proper size.

 

You will need a cooler, measuring device and winder that all work together.

 

This was demonstrated in I think v2.

 

Filastruder as a example had a add on project going, as severla others and well documented.  no problem to add their devices to the precious plastic extrusion machine.

warrior
06/05/2019 at 12:07
1

@thanks @btmetz! I will try to merge your comments into the dossier as best I can. I’d like to eliminate all the “could, if, when” as best as possible and come up with proves just; that’s exactly what people asking me 🙂
g

dedicated
06/05/2019 at 12:16
1

Yes.  Since the filament winder is kind of a done open source project, it is better to refer to the existing body of work rather than duplicate it.

 

Coming from the 3D printer world, being active in it for years, I guess for me filament is kind of a solved problem.

warrior
06/05/2019 at 12:46
1

@btmetz, i really hope you had a look at this video here; To me there is literally nothing solved when it comes to present PP machines on the subject to the outer world; hobbyist may find this alright for some one-off projects but if it comes to find investors I can tell you, there was nothing but head shaking to our clients.

warrior
07/05/2019 at 10:39
1

so there won’t be an official statement per-se, so we stick to what makes more sense to make a statement about the v3 extruder :

filament hobbyist use, yes
commercial or normal filament, no

ok then, topic can be closed 🙂
g

helper
07/05/2019 at 10:46
3

…maybe with the addition the difference between the two is made outside the machine, in the filament mile (as made clear in the video), which is not part of the official PP-project, and thus can’t officially be commented on by the PP-project.

warrior
15/05/2019 at 23:12
2

i’ve got some feedback from the industry about commercial filament : you need at least 44 professional machines at a price (cheapest, all-in-one machine) for ~8000 Euro to actually make money with filament 🙁

helper
16/05/2019 at 08:00
2

44 basic colours/diameters?

You could always go ‘niche’ (rainbow coloured filament, anyone?), but in reality that would just add an extra machine…

 

Would be easier (and cheaper) to reinvent the 3d-printer to get it to work with raw materials indeed…

I still say we should put the extruder on a robot arm and use the barcodes to sort the plastic 😉

warrior
16/05/2019 at 10:15
2

nah, 44 standalone machines (hopper,feeder,extrusion) ! ..unless i didnt understand the question.

helper
16/05/2019 at 11:13
1

Okay. I got confused because you also mentioned 1 all-in-one machine.
a machine can consist of several sub-machines: check.
makes sense in a modular build.

dedicated
16/05/2019 at 14:52
1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU_goBExuZQ  See this

 

Winding device with puller for each extruder Since many people have written to me whether the winding device with the puller can not be built standing alone, I have decided to make the short hand still. Then everyone can attach Das to his existing extruder. Aufwickelvorrichtung mit Puller für jeden Extruder Da mir viele Leute geschrieben haben ob man die Aufwickelvorrichtung mit dem Puller nicht allein stehend bauen kann, habe ich mich entschlossen das kurzer hand noch zu machen. Dann kann jeder Das an seinen bestehenden Extruder anbringen. Here is the link for the STL files and Excel: https://drive.google.com/drive/folderhttps://www.instagram.com/werbewunder/

dedicated
16/05/2019 at 14:55
0

this is in german.  can attach to the PP extrusion machine no prob  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YKrHoKZFDU

warrior
16/05/2019 at 15:25
1

@btmetz, yeah; youtube is full of that stuff but in 99% there is no quality audit or feedback; making things up is usually not a problem; selling it successfully is ! I mean; if an industrial filament mile is about ~8000, how you wanna possibly beat the results with a home grown setup below 1k ?

dedicated
17/05/2019 at 02:42
1

Quite simple really, You trade hard work and your skills vs paying someone else to do it.

 

Do not so quickly dismiss this guys work.

 

Filastruder for example is well documented.  There are quite a few people.  Built it, make it your own and run with it.

 

Personally where I live, there is not enough market for me to pursue 3D printing.  Did it for a couple years and went broke.+

 

https://www.filastruder.com/products/filawinder  here is a off the shelf unit for you

Viewing 30 replies - 1 through 30 (of 45 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.