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Step #2 – Finding a piece of land

This topic contains 171 replies, has 105 voices, and was last updated by  Martin Kemp 4 days ago.

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Dave Hakkens davehakkens

Step #2 – Finding a piece of land

20/05/2018 at 15:07

Hey!

Before we go in details about a piece of land, make sure to watch the step #1 video on projectkamp.com and read this post here.

This topic is to discuss options to find a piece of land, i’m sure there are many places available but hard to find them all from a laptop in the Netherlands. This this topic is to share ideas, sites, listings, pictures of land that is available. You might even have a friend that has a piece available.

Specially in early stage we are quite easy, never bought a piece of land so would like to explore options. A few (flexible) guidelines though.
– Netherlands would be cool, otherwise or Europe.
– Close to an airport or train station (max 1,5 hour)
– Enough surrounding green land around it.
– River in it would be sick! Otherwise we will digg a lake 😀
– Possible to live there with multiple people
– Max €80K, i guess…

Hopefully you guys are able to help out! The person that finds the land gets its own statue with name on the land. Eternal Project Kamp fame ✌️

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new
05/02/2019 at 07:16
2

Hi Dave,

i have few land back here in Malaysia. Anytime you ready to move in or even help to setup in Malaysia, please let me know.

Fadzil

starter
10/02/2019 at 02:10
1

Hi,
I have a piece of land in Sri Lanka by the river and in the community. Feel free to message me.
Lydia

starter
11/02/2019 at 11:34
1

Hi Terryball
That is correct. In Spain almost all abandoned buildings in rural areas are ruinas.
I don’t know how much easy is to get a permission to re-build the area. I know there are protected areas that cannot be re-built. Even some guys had some legal problems a year ago because they started to re-build a protected area without permission.

As you know, in Spain initiative and innovation don’t exist. So people from outside Spain are buying those small villages. Usually old people that are looking for a place to relax or investors.

I think most of the abandoned areas are from around 1950’s. As you know, in the rural areas there are less job opportunities, so people moved to cities trying to find more opportunities.

There is a company called AlmaNatura, that is the first B-Corp of Spain (B-Corp is a new kind of corporation called ‘Benefit’ Corporation) that is working since the end of the 1990’s trying to move people to the low-inhabitant rural areas and improving the skills of the people that are already living on rural areas.

Taberna desert is located almost in the South of Spain. I don’t know almost anything about it, but reading a little bit in Google it seems that is used to record some tv films. If I remember well, there is another big dessert in Spain, maybe in Navarra, I don’t remember exactly where it’s placed. But there is a huge area near Zaragoza that is called ‘La Laponia Ibérica’ (the Iberian Lapland). It’s a huge rural area where there are almost no inhabitants.

The following link is in spanish language, but you can see how big is the inhabited area. It’s even the most inhabitated area in the whole Europe.
https://www.cookingideas.es/serrania-celtiberica-20141029.html

About other movements in Spain I have read/heard about different ones. There are some small projects that they are some years old. But focused in a very primitive way of life. You know.. you need to wash you clothes using a homemade washing machine, etc… Maybe the most know one is in the north of Spain, in Galicia. The guy is called Enzo or something like that. He is from outside Spaing and they have built like an alternative lifestyle in that area. This guy is a good guy. I have been in contact with him a couple of times throught Facebook.

Then in Catalonia there is also a project that was based on an idea of a guy that was on TV some years ago because he got in legal problems because developed a way to get money from banks or something like that. I don’t remember well.

Focused in technology, some local goverments are building a digital district trying to develop artificial intelligence solutions and trying that companies outside Spain come to Spain to work. They are similar to tech-hubs.

For sure there is more information, but I don’t usually read a lot about those topics. A search in Google can show more projects like that.

Also, in some popular forum from Spain, people tried to develop a vacational-style island and after, a small village, but at the end nothing happened. In Reddit forum the users also tried to built a Reddit city. Again, nothing happened.

I think in this kind of project there must be a robust organization, you need to develop software tools that help to make more easy all the organization, etc. It’s not the first time that I participate in this kind of project and I have seen several times why these kind of projects ends in nothing. It’s all about a lack of organization and a lack of tools that help to execute the project in a serious way.

new
11/02/2019 at 14:48
3

whitaker, the guy from Catalonia you’ve mentioned is ‘Enric Dur*an’. He basically took mortgage with no real backup and then started a new kind of organisation called the ‘cooperativa integral’ which is wide spread and established in Spain. He basically pioneered the whole concept and backed this up with a new social currency. Unfortunately  many abused him and the thing got a little rotten and pretentious, to me. But his closer friends indeed managed to setup working communities, or eco villages as they are called. Anyway, currently he’s searched by interpol as well and most of us help him as much we can.

About the tools & infrastructure needed : I strongly disagree, you don’t need to build all from scratch and waste thousands of euros on this as @davehakkens does with no real substantial output. It seems a common sickness nowadays that people re-invent the wheel over and over again instead of participating in well established and organized open-source and free software knowingly that they more likely end up with a very incomplete monolith nobody wants to maintain or extend. You can see then this style over substance/functionality train-wrecks as the PP ‘platform’, focusing accidentally on trespassers rather than real grow of the existing portfolio.

However, That catalan guy managed to get it all done with zero $$ because there are still people in this world who volunteer and sign up without any commercial interest (unlike PP HQ who needs endless $$ for every simple little click they do) to get a good thing going. Another good example I know is the GUIFI network, friends of us as well, they also managed to build to largest long-range wifi network all over the planet for technically zero invest and true selfless volunteering.

I see frequently projects fail because under the assumption that the administration or leadership requires a lot of $$ whilst it’s not needed but some proper efforts.

starter
11/02/2019 at 19:11
2

@cgoflyn
That’s right, he is Enric Duran. I haven’t read about his works. Some years ago I watched in Youtube a video about the ‘cooperativa’.

So, do you suggest that open-source structure is the most recommended way to execute these kind of projects? I have almost not experience in open-source projects.

It’s true that is happening in almost 100% of the situations that the projects that fail need endless amounts of money. You’re right in the assumption that it’s possible to execute interesting initiatives with almost zero money. In some cases I have saw, it’s true that the first thing people asked for was for money, but then almost no one was working on the project. Those projects that fail usually is based in a few people that need to execute endless amount of work. As you know, that fails. It’s better, as you mention, to have lots of people doing small amount of work, and spend money as little as possible. I see more interesting your concept.

There in Germany I have seen in the internet some of the most interesting projects. Like one village that is 100% self-sustainable in terms of energy production and consumption. I remember a man that said “we need visionaires and engineers not people that the only thing they want is money and people that don’t believe in things”.

As you know, Linux for example, as far I know, is based on volunteers. For sure there are other projects that are open-source and based on volunteers too. One guy that is called Bayle Shanks emailed me with some interesting information about open-source structures and websites.

Another great idea I thought after watching a video in Youtube about a guy that tried to do his own sandwich (and cost him 1.500 USD and 6 months of time to do a simple sandwich) is the critically important thing that the distribution of work is. I remember to read somewhere in the net, that some years ago it was published a new Harry Potter book and it took less than 30 minutes to translate it all. Why? because there where hundred of people that translated 1 page at a time. If only one person wanted to translate the whole book, maybe it would take more than 1 week and some hundreds or thousands of euros. Having people working in a single project at a time, took minutes and no money. Again, with the example of the guy that tried to do his own sandwich, took much more time and money than an ordinary sandwich can cost. In a restaurant, maybe it cost 5 USD and 10 minutes. Why? because there is a group making bread, another group growing tomatoes, another group growing lettuces, the farmer is taking care of the chickens to produce meat, etc…
What that all means? That means that if work specialization is so critically important, think about hyper-specialization of work. It could be astonishing. Work execution would be (n)00% faster and cost could be dramatically diminished.

Maybe we need a website where any volunteer can join the project he/she wants? Of course, I don’t know if this would be reinventing the wheel, but it’s the way I see it nowadays.

new
11/02/2019 at 21:09
1

Hi,
I think it’s not that much about open-source at all. What matters is functionality for a good price and if such commercial offer doesn’t work out or is too much of a liability for the project, then yes: there are always plenty of open-source/free software alternatives.

What I recommend is to pick any of the free offers to setup the basics: communication, trade and administration, of course with full transparency and democracy in mind otherwise you will find yourself exactly in the same scheme you’re trying (or as here: pretend) to be ahead from: a monolithic and hierarchic structure where the over-performing losers get promoted to the middle or upper management and can make key decisions fully out of their competence, exactly what we see now with DH and his companion Mattia and a few others, building more a brand, filling their pockets for some goofy made up reasons and better, surround them with enough clueless fanboys (see also the same article)  than a real p2p network with some basic tools.

And I fully agree with the rest of your post, with the right network software (and there is plenty out there) you could enable p2p exchange of parts, work, plastic and what not. Instead we just got a dull, inefficient replicate of capitalism: buy buy these overprice **** machines, make a product, and sell it on our platform , making us rich with nothing in return. This should be banned altogether.

Needless to say, but there is a reason why we have now the yellow vests, the Catalonia vs Spain problem, etc.. and it’s coming all down to same problem : nobody wants some fully unsuited freaks doing important decisions for them.

And yes, technically there is enough man power in the PP community to pull this off. Pick a ticket from some task/kanban system, get paid in $$ or some new plastic currency, setup some assemblies, delegate the work to who want and everybody will be fine. This works even for quite some people around me already since years, btw. They get a hair-dress and help some else to change place.

Unfortunately with guys like DH we won’t see such things, we gonna see an even more narrow and fancy view of some designer who doesn’t know even the basics. A designer wants the interface always fancy and cute…

I don’t know what to tell more about this, I am pretty tired of all this. I just hope this kids in PP HQ wake up and realize what’s at stake here. The waste and lies should stop ASAP! that would be already a good start.

 

helper
16/02/2019 at 16:08
3

Hello people! I want to share with you some news about a possible place for the project (but always flexible).
After some research and a little trip around Portugal, I´ve realized that maybe the area with more land that suits our needs is Castelo Branco, Portugal. This region is suffering now a depopulation problem, what we can fix a little bit. This is a nice area of East-Middle Portugal, where we can be also welcome by the city councils. It is about the same distance from Lisbon as from Porto. There are some interesting sources at that region that we can use and we can also try to add some value to the surounds colaborating and helping local people.

I was visiting some lands there which were amazing, it is not easy to share feelings on forums… but I´ll show you some pictures.

We are now designing a more concrete plan to choose the land that best suits the project.

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helper
17/02/2019 at 14:39
3

That looks awesome! Very curious about the plans and progress!

lu
helper
18/02/2019 at 21:22
2

Hi Adrián & all,

I recognise that landscape! Is it near Idanha, the M. Carmona dam and the Boom Festival camp? If so it’s where my father grew up and I spent part of my childhood summers.
Yes, it is rather depopulated as many areas over 100km from the coast. In the south, in Alentejo, it’s like that as close as 50km from the coast. Dave visited Tamera, mere 35kms from the coast, so he must have seen that. Closeby there are 2 great new projects, Buínho and A-F-Á-B-R-I-C-A (https://www.facebook.com/CLARAbyProjectEarth/) that I fully recomend visiting!
Castelo Branco, in Beira Baixa, has a much ‘rougher’ weather than Alentejo, but still mild for those coming from central Spain or anywhere north of the Pyrenees.

Adrián: apologies that I didn’t answer your message when you came to Lisbon but the problem was that messages from this forum where not landing in my ‘primary’ inbox, so when I saw it it was already too late and I felt ‘ashamed’… if you want to message me you can use the email adress I gave you and I can also share other options (direct SMS is the most fail-safe 😉 )

Anyway, I have no particular ‘political’ connections in the area but can at least help with some local knowledge, local language (although most people are fine with spanish) and maybe some legalities and bureaucracies.

Great news to start the week! 🙂

starter
24/02/2019 at 04:56
3

Dave, if you want it my husband and I will donate one hectare of untouched land for your project. It is far, far away, in a remote country that only recently opened up for the world to visit. We were fortunate enough to get an amazing lot on the beach on the pacific coast of Colombia, near Nuqui. Turtles nest on the beach, the whales come visit in August, the people are warm and the area is so safe we always leave our house wide open. Such beauty and peace come at the price of the primitiveness of it all: No power, no running water, no plumbing. You have to do it all from scratch. We are currently working with solar panels, running the tools with a generator, looking at micro hydro generation to take advantage of all the rivers around us. The challenges are MASSIVE, but the same wildness that makes it challenging is what makes it appealing as you can do quite a bit as regulations do not yet make it all the way down here. It might all sound crazy but I admire your work and inspiring commitment to truly reduce, recycle and make it available to others so if we can do this for you, we’d be happy to.

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starter
24/02/2019 at 05:12
3

We understand the offer in Colombia is way too small for the entire Kamp, but it can be considered a satelite camp in a different continent. Food for thought

starter
25/03/2019 at 12:38
2

Hey everyone!  I just came across an interesting offer for a piece of land in the Czech Republic, so I thought it would be good to share here.
It seems this place suits all the requirements above.
Transportation: 1:30 to Prague, 1:40 to Dresden
Price: 68 417 EUR
Area: 43 945 m²
part of a small stream in the area
the only thing is – it should be used for recreational purposes because it´s a former quarry. Nevertheless, I think that you could find a solution for this small bureaucratic problem.
btw. This project you came up with is just amazing, I hope that you will find your dream piece of land SOON! 🙂

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dedicated
25/03/2019 at 14:52
3

hey folks,
I think Dave and his crew decided already sometime ago for Portugal but i can be wrong

however, looks like there are now many possibilities/offers to make project camp multiple times by different groups .. major obstacle is as said that those projects more likely work only well if the people know each other good

if someone want’s to do it Catalonia, we’re all in 🙂

starter
26/03/2019 at 14:11
1

Hey guys, I live in France and here there’s a guy named Pierre Rabhi that created an association that has a structure to help develop projects like project kamp!
There are coaches, a wiki, courses and material to learn the necessary skills for an “off grid” life, workers to help you build/renovate the buildings/land, jurists to help with all the rules, a way to convince the mair…

Here is the link
https://www.colibris-lemouvement.org/projets/projet-oasis

Cheers ✌️

warrior
26/03/2019 at 22:35
4

@nadele @wannabannanna thanks a lot for your suggestions – we are focussing on Portugal now, so that’s most probably going to be the home for our Project Kamp – if nothing super incredible comes in between hehe. 🇵🇹

And @martinhub thanks for this tipp, we’ll check it out!


So, little update for everyone.

@acoira (Adrian) and I have been
– checking out properties (mostly online, but also offline – check earlier comments),
– reaching out to communities & projects to exchange and learn from
– talking to people with experience in buying property (in Portugal)
– researching on regulations and processes for permits etc.
– putting together a document to give a better idea of our plan & requirements

After Adrian already had a quick look in January, we will finally dive into the portuguese territory in APRIL!
So now we’re planning all our appointments with the communities, architects, municipalities, real estate guys and other experienced people.

We’ll be in the area between Porto and Lisbon, checking out the center (Viseu, Coimbra, Castelo Branco…) + a short visit to Tamera (to learn from experienced people).

The plan is to get a better feeling for the areas, people, regulations and processes.
And potentially already find our new home! 🙈

Let us know, if you have more useful information or contacts (or a piece of land there) – We’re especially looking for portuguese ARCHITECTS, LAWYERS and COMMUNITIES (similar projects as Project Kamp) to connect and make friends with 👐😁

@davehakkens and @mattia-io will join us later in April to catch up. 👊

Will keep you posted with our results!

[Also, if we manage, we’ll post more daily updates in Instagram stories (@davehakkens), for anyone who wants to follow our trip and maybe even get in touch if you see that we could visit interesting projects/people nearby.]

starter
01/04/2019 at 18:02
5

Her we have made a video for you 🙂

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGNFNELQ76M

our place is made for the precious plastic comunity 🙂

sunny greeting Georg

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dedicated
01/04/2019 at 19:54
0

@georg89, lovely, just lovely ! thanks for sharing, we will visit you on our yearly ‘robinson crusoe’ trip to ‘cabo de gata’ in september. we bring you some little gratis plastic machine 🙂 In case you didn’t notice, PP is moving to Portugal (see a few more comments above: from Katharina). A pity 🙂 There are are btw. entire villages in Galicia for 100K for sale, in a not to bad shape, more importantly : having endless drinkable water going though the land. Pretty much needed to make this one right sine the water crisis should hit Spain/Portugal latestly in the next 3 years. have a nice one, guenter

starter
02/04/2019 at 21:06
1

Some 8000 square meters of land and I would be honored to have you as guests on it. 80 + 30 km from Sofia airport (LBSF) and 70 +30 km from Nish airport (LYNI). River pases through it and it has two access roads

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04/04/2019 at 22:35
0

Bonsoir a tous,
je viens tout juste de rejoindre la communauté. Je trouve ce projet très ambitieux et incroyable. j’aimerais en apprendre d’avantage.. merci

new
11/04/2019 at 07:40
1

I recently retired and sold my organically certified farm of 35 years in Australia, now living in Sri Lanka.
Dave, if the soils are right everything will flow from that, not only in what you grow and eat, but the feeling of the place and your lifestyle. I always had comments about how peaceful my farm was, how healthy and calm my cattle, horses, goats and sheep (even the chickens!) were and how the house and environs were welcoming and relaxing.
Organics are so simple. All that needs to change is our thinking. I changed a 200 acre barren wilderness into a lush productive farm that survived even through our awful Australian droughts.
Best of luck
Steve

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starter
19/04/2019 at 14:45
0

Wow, just read through the 170 replies.

Great to see so many people from all over the world working together on this and adding their ideas. Sounds like there are lots of similar “kamps”, sustainable communities (maybe) planned all over.

I know that the Precious Plastics team are looking in Castelo Branco, Portugal.

 

Though as this post is such a reference, I think you may be interested in the “One Planet Development” rules in Wales in the UK.  There is planning permissions especially designed for those who want to live a sustainable ‘one planet’ lifestyle. You can build on ‘green open space’ which sounds similar to what project kamp is trying to do.
Wales has sustainability written into it’s constitution, the one planet development policy is part of “one planet, one wales” and they also have ‘the future generations act’ to consider the future in policy today. It’s also very beautiful.
There is an organisation setup to help people one Planet Developments at http://www.oneplanetcouncil.org.uk

 

You may also be interested in the Centre for Alternative Technology, setup in the 70’s with very similar aims to Project Kamp. It now has a visitor centre, activities for children and school and even runs Masters degrees. I did my masters there and have done my own eco refurbishment of a house in the nearby town. The website is – http://www.cat.org.uk  If you visit, I’m happy to give you a tour.

 

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