Step #2 – Finding a piece of land
This topic is to discuss options to find a piece of land, i’m sure there are many places available but hard to find them all from a laptop in the Netherlands. This this topic is to share ideas, sites, listings, pictures of land that is available. You might even have a friend that has a piece available.
Specially in early stage we are quite easy, never bought a piece of land so would like to explore options. A few (flexible) guidelines though.
– Netherlands would be cool, otherwise or Europe.
– Close to an airport or train station (max 1,5 hour)
– Enough surrounding green land around it.
– River in it would be sick! Otherwise we will digg a lake 😀
– Possible to live there with multiple people
– Max €80K, i guess…
Hopefully you guys are able to help out! The person that finds the land gets its own statue with name on the land. Eternal Project Kamp fame ✌️
Forgive me for asking but:
How is moving to Portugal going to solve the issues you mentioned in the project Kamp introduction video? Sure, It is a very tantalizing ideology to set up your own community, somewhere in nature where the modern western consumerist society hasn’t taken root yet. Create your own little bubble with a big green sticker on it because you happen to be able to afford your own solar panels. While the capitalists and corporations eat the rest of us and everything else while they’re at it.
There were many communities founded out in nature in the sixties and seventies during the ideological revolution of the counter culture movement. Believing that as long as they segregated themselves from society they would not be affected by the ever growing all consuming modern world. Still it is turning everything in its path into commodities, for profit. Even our online activities is being bought and sold by corporations turning our ideologies, our ideas, our expressions, our data into a commodity. Even we are participating in this spectacle. Reaching and communicating only with the people that think alike. While the rest of society lingers on in a filter bubble they did not consent to. Their ideologies dominated by algorithms in server farms on the other side of the planet.
Why even move to Portugal to tackle problems while right here in the Netherlands we:
-Have rapid growing socio-economic inequalities like never before.
-Are cutting more trees down per square acre than in the Amazon rain forest
-Have a government that funds cutting down the Amazon rain forest
-Are building EU subsidized Biomass ovens so that Trees from the USA and Europe can be burned off for cheap fuel and profit
-Have one of the highest amounts of per capita private and cooperate debt in the world
-Are experiencing one of the biggest house market bubbles in the world while vacancy and the need for living space is at it all time highest ever.
-Fascism is our politics is making its biggest come back ever with the FVD
-Student debt is at its all-time highest and rising
-Capitalism is on a rampant path privatizing and destroying the last bits of our public services and socialist ideologies.
-The banks are about to push our economic system over the edge. Again, just like in 2008 only now they’ve leveraged more.
The root of our social and environmental problems lie in the minds of each and every individual of this society. On a global level yes but predominantly on a local level. Going off grid and committing only to an online community while leaving the rest of society behind isn’t going to change any of them and will tackle and create only personal problems. I surely wish that this current conundrum of our generation was merely a technological or geographical issue. Sadly it appears to be institutional and societal. You can’t fix a broken car engine by replacing the headlights.
You can’t fix a broken car engine by replacing the headlights.
And there is no point fixing the engine, if somebody else owns all the fuel 😉
I share your frustration with current society kabouterbeweging – the problems you state about the Netherlands are the same in the UK – and, it seems, in most of the “developed” world.
Many “less developed” countries have their problems too. They are different, and arguably even worse than ours.
Maybe complete global societal collapse will happen sooner than any of us expects, or maybe we will stumble on from crisis to crisis for many years. Either way, the problems are too big for a small online community to solve. Some of us do still try – by being politically involved in our own regions – but we shouldn’t feel that our approach is the only valid one. Sometimes it is better to make a strategic retreat – both to regroup and to at least preserve a small pocket of sanity. Some people might be glad of the potential refuge when the political shit hits the fan.
No point in having someone else owning all the fuel. Monopoly is a game and when someone has won it’s supposed to go back in the box. Eat the rich. Taxing them is supposed to ensure that and it is our responsibility to make sure those policies are implemented.
Society is currently just following the path of least resistance. Couldn’t say that that is cause of any frustration. The Netherlands having a relatively big middle class filled with people with jobs who have to pay their mortgages. In France and the UK on the other hand that middle class was mostly diminished after 10 years of governments implementing ruthless austerity on it’s citizens to bail out the banks after the 2008 financial crash with tax payer money. In the UK part of the people voted for Brexit. In France we have the Gilets Jaunes still going strong. Either way the Netherlands is a tax haven for big businesses. Adds to the veneer between us and the particle board reality of neo-liberal capitalism. Which will consume everything in the end. Even human rights like privacy, housing, decent jobs, health care, education and more…
No what is cause of frustration is putting band aids on symptoms while declaring yourself to be tackling global problems. Yes sir with a “can-do” attitude and a bit of elbow grease we can clean up this mess those darned corporations left in their wake. Those consumers don’t know any better, just leave them in the American dream which has colonized every western mind like a contagious fungus. It’s called progress.
No we’d rather be nice, pose for the camera, edit ourselves and press like. Avoid confrontation and critique at all cost. Ignore your neighbor, Move down south, and make sure you look good while doing it. 😉
Much of the statement on the problems I agree with, the question is perhaps one of what is the solution?
The RSA have some great podcasts which discuss this. Including discussion on the illusion of meritocracy and problems with technocratic neoliberal capitalism and much more. One of the first ones is on youtube here https://youtu.be/qOP2V_np2c0 the podcast is on here soundcloud https://soundcloud.com/the_rsa
On solutions, Greta Thunberg and many others talk about a circular economy. A completely different paradigm to our current abstractive system. I think it’s fair to say PreciousPlastics is a part of that. Unfortunately the economics of recycling are volatile and community scale even more so. However, many of us have been working on a business model and there is some potential. If optical sorting works, then it might not be long before PreciousPlastics could be supporting basic wages. In more dramatic terminology, PreviousPlastic is building up a new economic system while the old one still exists. But to make that sustainable, people need a low cost of living, which is where project Kamp could come in.
My main work and interest is in climate change, decades of neglect certainly give reason for outrage. However I also see reason for optimism. We see Marie Kondo’s approach (basically minimalism), becoming incredibly popular. With minimalism being perhaps a practical alternative at a personal level to hyper-consumption which had somehow become the norm. We are now seeing ‘thrift’ stores, aka vintage or second-hand growing faster than fast-fashion in the
states. There are signs of progress.
We do need to engage with the current system, we need PP to be able to offer employment, we need it to work at scale to address the seriousness of the plastic problem. Remembering that 90% of biodiversity loss is from extractive industries, by avoiding anything new. Working towards not needing to extract any more oil for plastic and instead simple utilising what has already been extracted would create a radically different world. People living in a sustainable way, such as in project Kamp and equivalents means people moving away from corporations and their greed. There is a lot of work on intentional communities which can be learnt from to save time and resources. It could be a centre for learning aswell as living, therefore engaging a wider audience and supporting wider change.
There are many steps in creating an equitable and sustainable future. A circular economy including community action such as Precious Plastic is one, sustainable living such as project Kamp another. Developing new economic systems and lobbying for them (i.e. Green New Deal) are all part of the same story.
Creating viable alternatives is a strong part of addressing the challenges of our time. Creating alternatives and implementing them as people are doing here is even better.
…and let’s not forget it’s only the headquarters that’s moving, most of us will simply stand our ground in our local communities!
The headquarters never was about actual plastic recycling, it is about enabling plastic recycling, and this you can do most anywhere.
If your (more than) full time job is about plastic recycling, wouldn’t it be nice to be able to spend your free time in an environment without plastic? If only to recharge your batteries and being able to give another 150% once you go back in the field?
I absolutely agree it makes no sense for ‘Precious Plastics’ to move to rural Portugal. But it doesn’t, not really.
Dave is moving to Portugal to start a NEW project!
Don’t believe me?
Just look where THIS discussion is taking place:
On HIS website, on a SEPARATE forum (project kamp) from the Precious Plastics forum(!).
I have also done all that ‘hippie crap’ when I was his age, and learned a bloody lot, so more power to him.
And again: I am staying put in Eindhoven, in the Netherlands, exactly doing what ‘we’ are now saying Dave should do.
Let’s stop playing the ‘blame Dave’ game and start spreading some healthy anarchy.
And why anarchy you might ask?
No bloody leaders needed!
We ARE a community .
Let’s start acting like one, agree to disagree and take the (good) fight to where it belongs, building on our strenghts to overcome our weaknesses.
Fighting amongs ourselves only defeates our purpose.
– who does fixes the website ? the community has no access to it
– who does fixes the bazar and gives us a real forum ? the community has no access to it
– when do we get free trade ? the community has no access to it
– when can we exchange free items ? the community has no access to it
– when can we translate the website ? the community has no access to it
– how can we fix misleading and incomplete build instructions, the community has no access to it !
– who is in charge to manage the project ? dont tell me it doesn’t need a project manager, then you lost all the credibility I have left for you
– who is in charge for strategical and tactical decisions ?
it’s pretty much us, the community who has to pay now twice to get those things fixed; why ?
you want me to go on ?
There is no Blame Dave Game happening. We are merely pondering the question if moving down to Portugal and recycling bits of plastics is going to affect any of the issues mr Dave mentioned in his Project Kamp introduction video.
As far as “open source” goes, there is not much open source about this platform. This process of setting up Project Kamp is merely distributed through a minute number of forum posts and youtube videos. All of it has the name DAVE HAKKENS plastered all over it. The only people that are involved and getting information about the process are the people surrounding Dave in Eindhoven.
Don’t call it an open source community if the whole project is centered around a couple of people in Dave’s immediate circle. Don’t be proclaiming to tackle global problems by melting down plastic waste and sell it as plastic crap. Most of which will slowly deteriorate into the environment in the long run anyway. It’s merely self-indulgence posted online.
hmm.. maybe i should just go work at starbucks or something.
But why don’t you guys come to Eindhoven if you are so interested to help? IMPROVE the things we do wrong. Make us really “open source” We are open for you. Stop typing start contributing
@davehakkens, that’s exactly your problem ! instead of forcing people to come to Eindhoven to be the ‘realpreciousplastic’, you better start realizing that PP is a loose pool of entities whom have much better life and R&D qualities than you could ever have or provide in bloody Eindhoven, simple as that. That’s why I also urged you roll out a proper platform, ‘Liferay’ has it all.
we are not teens anymore, please understand that there are folks out there who give 200%, it makes no sense to lock everybody out just because you want to keep everything under your control. If you can’t provide tools, platforms, let the others do what they can do best; count on us 🙂
Well a job at Starbucks will in fact most likely lower your carbon footprint quite significantly. You wont be able to afford a car or a van so you can travel by bike. You wont have to move to Portugal and build an entire house because there are plenty of vacant properties in and around Eindhoven. Also travelling abroad will be less do-able because it basically will be to expensive on a minimum wage salary. That will lower some of your carbon footprint. You wont have to buy and build machines which will spare a lot of resources and energy. You wont have to use all that energy to melt down those plastics releasing those vapors into the air. No shipping costs either. Also the Starbucks minimum wage salary will facilitate a more minimalist way of living. Correct me if I’m wrong but lowering your carbon footprint is the goal right?
Wouldn’t be much to make videos about though.
@davehakkens, starbucks, really ? how about you build a few of your own machines ? it’s enough to make some income for one, and you will finally start realizing what you’ve done to others with that so generous ‘opensource’ drawings.
all it takes is to get your hands dirty, from 8 – 2pm, 2 times the week only. in that you will also know what it means to be the real precious plastic 🙂
to me it’s actually simple after figuring out the demand, interest and also hype about the precious plastic machines. it’s clear to me that we have to push harder the limits, much harder, it’s not done with a bigger shredder, period. It’s also clear to me that project kamp should not try to reinvent the wheel; I’ve seen many such projects, in many countries and only a few managed to make first things first right : have a decent living and ‘safe’ future. that means you need a hand craft in place which pays the bills (PP). From there you can archive all the neat things you think you can make better : circular economy, kilometer zero, name it …
it’s also obvious that you can’t just do a project here and there, it pays much better out to really focus on a subject for long, if you do things good, money comes by self. for instance we realized now there is no other way for us than getting a huge place (done) and put everything on PP and serve the local and global community with good machines and solutions which may create revenue (PET printers/grinders, print houses,…name it).
it makes zero sense to life on the minimum life quality edge and tackle such problems, sorry; it’s just insane, if you can’t take care about yourself, you certainly can’t take of others.
it may help to try understanding, that project kamp presents a good opportunity to run PP, the new way. micro manufacturing is the way to go. of course you can’t do that with a few solar panels 🙂
having that said, it should be clear that building this on bazaar fees, patreon and donations is plain and simple wrong; not sustainable. eating your own dogfood helps also increase the success of the project, it’s done that way since ages, in many industries and projects.
@davehakkens, ‘stop typing, start contributing’ is the biggest slap in our face ever, the height of this insult you just left here can be only beaten by the tools you gave us, sorry. you should shake your head in shame and apologize !!!
you want me to write down what the community already did and paid for you ? you want me to write down the health impacts we pay to fix your machines ?
Well the only initiatives that survive in our current neo-liberal capitalist economic model are the ones that are profitable. If it isn’t profitable it does not have the right to survive. The markets decide and most of the eu and our national policies are written in accordance to this economic model. The European Union was founded by capitalists lobbying for open borders so that free markets could trade. Regardless of economic and cultural diversity.
In the late 60’s the socialist and counter culture movement was able to implement policy and regulation of an entirely different fashion. Labor unions, Social security, Education funds, Health care, Public transportation, Pensions, improving the quality of living for the working-class and essentially creating a large middle class that was able to grow and prosper. People gained massive amounts of social mobility and prospered from an entire array of new opportunities. How did they do this? Massive public movements calling for taxing the corporations and the rich. The redistribution of wealth. All of a sudden initiatives that weren’t “profitable” were able to exist and serve the needs of the majority of the people.
Essentially without government redistributing wealth you are not able to develop and sustain projects that are not profitable but beneficial to society and our environment. Didn’t Precious plastic got a 300.000,- euro award from Famae which is partially funded by EU taxpayer money and a couple of knighted academics and interest fund managers? Throw a dog a bone and it stops bothering you I suppose.
The occupy movement was making some big waves. But that was a movement without a goal. Sure, part of the ideology was pointing out the flaws in the neo-liberal capitalist economic system endorsed by our elected officials, but did not supply a coherent alternative ideology to change that economic system. With the current middle class sliding back into debt & poverty, students being robbed of their freedom and future taking up massive amounts of debt in exchange for an education.
The extinction rebellion is taking the discussion into the streets for the environment. The unions like bondprecairewoonvormen, housingforall etc starting to make waves as well. The decentralized crypto currencies are providing a relief from the stranglehold by the big banks and finance on our economic markets. This generation has massive resources and a massive opportunity to change this economic system before its to late. I would say lets stop working for profit, lets start working for social solidarity. The infrastructure and communities are already in place. I apologize for involving politics in this thread. But isn’t this an issue we all are facing? Regardless of living in the cities or in the hills?
@davehakkens, we really expect an apology and a rectification of your statement ! it’s the worst insult and arrogance we’ve seen from you til now.
monthly news #28 Guenter. wait for it 🙏
Hei guys! I am not sure if this is the right place for talking about this. This is just a topic about finding a piece of land for Project Kamp. I agree that these discussions should happen talking about thoughts, political issues, organizations systems… and for sure there is a lot of knowledge to learn, to discuss and to share out there!
But I think that talking about this here is just making a mess in this topic. The goal of this topic is to share the plan and the proccess to find the land for Project Kamp (hopefully it could be useful for other people who want to learn about it or just be part of it) and this situations are only going to make more difficult the goals.
So… please think about it guys, we have a free forum where you can start another thread and talk about whatever you want.
Agreed! But calling this project open-source prototyping a new way of living is a bit of a misnomer though XD
@robb, yeah well; young people do what young people do best, messing around with everything; it takes a good portion of experience to fully understand what opensource really means, even after 30 years behind the screen I am still buffed about the interpretations one can come up with 🙂 good news is that the team in eindhoven has now more manpower but there’s more overall success from within in the community as well; i am in good faith that we’re getting there to something called status-quo; even though if I’d had to go there myself to remind them to periodically upload public funded research back to the community; lol; me sneaking through window and ‘stealing’ the v4 drawings just to get them where it belongs : github or whatever 😉
beautiful to realise, that there are many thinking the same way as I do for couple of years,
I have this certain idea of creating the sustainable “town” full of workshops, culture and sports in Slovakia.
we have an amazing lakes, amazing climate, amazing soul without any affection of chemicals. many enthusiast most importantly (tired of living under the influence of communism or capitalism) and fruits and wine and plenty of land. just need to pick the right one :––––––––––)
Hi! We are a 501(c)3 nonprofit that works with two Maasai communities in Maasai Mara, Kenya making up a huge number of land owners. How many acres would you need? I think if you were able to assist us in bringing internet to their area (currently there is mostly 2g/3g cell and some 4g cell signal where Maasai live) we could partner together. Your plastic machinery is next on my list to bring over. I travel over twice a year and bring what I can. This plastic processing would create so many economic and live improving opportunities in addition to what we are already doing — souvenirs, wood like building material (wood is nearly impossible for them to access). These are the coolest people ever, live at one with the earth, but fences popping up and exploitative tour/safari companies are locking these awesome people into fences and losing access to water. Anyway, we already have it in our plan to build something (I was looking at containers and that’s how I found your videos). There’s a place called Containers Kenya that sells prefab stuff, but you made it look easy. Both places on the attached map are within 1.5 hours from an airstrip that will have daily arrivals/pickups around 11am and then again at 4pm. Flights take about 1 hour and you arrive at the Wilson Airport, just about 30 mins from Jomo Kenyatta International.
Dave Dave! Can we apply to collaborate in kamp? I would like to work there.
South Urals (and namely Bashkortostan province) is the best place in the world, IMHO. Yes, we have a winter, but a winter has it’s own benefits. For example, it prevents proliferation of many viruses and parasites which are living at south countries. It allows to preserve food without energy waste (without fridges). It seismically stable and stay apart from nuclear plants and recylcing facilities. It still have a decent amount of forests. There is still traditional villages with native inhabitants (something similar to indians in USA) who are living in mountains and forests and keeping bees (including natural beekeeping, called “колодное пчеловодство”) and horses. And also there is more strong islamic influence which is intolerate to “LGBT” and other sexual prevertions, which is good for me, as it is the way the humanity lived for thousands of years as opposed to only a half of a century of dramatic divorce rate growth after the so called “sexual revolution” (which along with feminism I consider as a toxic infovirus). A lot of nice photos can be found on the touristic site about Urals.
Personally me interested in developing of the kamp here. I can weld, maintain and modify machines and electronics.
Also, Dave, before you dig into the standalone kamp, I recommend you to read the book by Gleb Tyurin called “Опыт возрождения деревень” (I don’t know if this book exists in english). This book gives clear vision that buildings, wind turbines, solar panels in rural side is not the number one priority. There is already prebuilt houses in Russia that can be bought for a few thousands of USD. Also you can buy a new log house (called “сруб”, biodegradable as you like) for $5k for 10×9 meters (LxW) with installation (look offerings at avito(dot)ru). The most critical part is local self-governance: people who want and can run the local economy. This is a super critical part.
Hi Guys, I live in Armenia and I think that you can find everything you are looking for here.we have a small country, people are very gastropymic and friendly, there is little seizure, there are low land plots, there is little money for chewing panadbits.what you have in mind can be implemented here easily.
Hey hey, still looking for land?
PERFECT ! CHECK THIS —–> https://www.era.pt/imoveis/terreno-castelo-branco-sarzedas_pt_1018999
have you considered Portugal?
Some nice pieces of land for up to 90K, with options 🙂
Let me know if you want me to dig deeper 🙂
Yes! We are focused on Portugal nowadays, we will be here now for 2 weeks having meetings with municipalities and checking another bunch of lands.
We have already been at Castelo Branco area, but now we have changed a bit our perspective and we are mainly focused on northern and central areas, Coimbra, Viseu, Porto, Braga…
But thank you very much for the information!
hi, good idea! I have a similar project. Life Union Project Camp. I would like to contact you in the future and make joint works. I couldn’t start to work because of some problems in our country. Trying to find space for camping project. See you next time…
Hello everyone, I am new here but I foud this project so fascinating that I wanted to colab.
In a previous post frogfall talks abput using an already used but abandoned area and I think that it is a great idea, easiy archievable in Spain. Here exist the option of buying abandoned villages. I mean, not buying the individual houses or lands but the complete village as a hole including the sourroundings.
It has the advantage that the land is already ready to build and farm and the comunications to the main citys around already exist. Also this option will provide a lot of building materials that can be recicled from previous edifications and you can rebuild as work or comunal space old stone churches.
I leave you a link were you can check some of those villages
I hope it is helpfull
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