no, we’re NOT creating an army !
Not sure why the article has been not posted for further discussion where it belongs: in the forum.
So from what i see, there are some infrastructure updates and lots of machine tasks, well, better said : unpaid jobs or calls for volunteer works. I am not sure where the hard earned 300.000 go but from what i see it’s going into the wrong pockets, again.
Let me start with the machine jobs/task: why the heck you want to build bigger machines, located somewhere in your shop ? How much use is this to the problem ? Nada!
As mentioned many times in the forum: the only real solution is to allocate resources in each continent/country and help people where the plastic problem is more crucial ! It simply makes ZERO sense that Dave Hakken has more toys and keeps building monolith pyramid structures.
To me, it cost literally just a fraction (of the bloat you are going to pay ) to help on each continent by giving machine builders the means like a laser cutter, lathe etc.. I am now seriously wondering what your objective is, you or fighting plastic aste !?
Then, there is ZERO mention on how the crucial infrastructure update will look like. Instead of promoting and supporting machine variants or versions it’s just getting worst : there is a mentioning of ‘verified machine builder’, and ‘according to the drawings’. This raise a hell of red flags to me again and I am afraid we have to wait another 300k and 2 years that @davehakkens finally realizes that this is about building autonomous networks with dynamic structures, not static pyramids with more censorship and permanent lack of moderation and support.
so much waste of public money again, please prove me wrong but when I saw that new article, I’ve got really upset, nothing learned, nothing added, nothing changed, just getting worst
having said that, no! you’re not creating not an army, you are enriching yourself only, for us machine builders & researches down the road nothing really changes; it stays as before: decoupled & supported people, exposed to heavy budgets and unsustainable activities, paid with own hard earned money.
Dear Guenter, Anne, and whoever is sitting behind this account @anne-barbier,
I have been reading all your replies in the forum, and never found a moment to react to them, but now is the time!
First of all I would like to thank you for your feedback, support and input you’ve already given to this community. You seem to be very dedicated to Precious Plastic and it seems like you’re very much into further improving the machines and platforms, which is great.
You do have very valid points and many of them have been on our list for a long time already – like giving more realistic numbers and experiences around building the machines. In fact, we mentioned your name (and with your name referring to all of your feedback) many times while making the plan for V4 (not joking!).
Reading your reaction to V4, it seems like we couldn’t communicate our plan and priorities clear enough for you – I will give it another try.
We are planning to rebuild the whole infrastructure, based on everything we know about our community and its interactions, needs and potentials. This will include huge improvements of all platforms:
– the website with a better documentation of information, experiences and tipps
– the map with a much more detailed filter, so people can find components, collection/recycling places, workspaces, events, people and more,
– the bazar (too many necessary improvements to list them all here) and of course
– the forum with a better search/filter function, documentation process and more, so people will FIND their answers more efficiently etc.
We discussed our approach with our experienced developer and came out with positions for a number of UI/UX designer and developers – we’ll have a team of 7-9 people working ONLY on the online world, FULLTIME! I don’t know how experienced you are in building digital platforms, but we are certain that we’ll have passionate and skilled people onboard who will achieve more than just “some infrastructure updates”!
(Side note: All this will fully serve the COMMUNITY, help people in the building process and enable them to build networks, take action locally and share what they learn – I don’t see your point how this could be about “Dave Hakkens’ toys”)
MACHINES & TOOLS
You summed this part up as “a lot of machine tasks” like that’s a bad thing?
As you should know, this project is not only open-source, sharing everything we learn, but also trying to involve the community’s engagement and suggestions and to react on their demands.
The machines and tools on our plan are exactly that: reactions to the issues and demands we found in our community.
Safer, more efficient and reliable machines were big on this list – and that was even one of YOUR points, so I really can’t understand why you suddenly degrade it as useless. And by the way, developing a “bigger shredder” is not at all for our shop, but (as everything we do) mainly for the community to rebuild. But of course we have to build and test it first before we can share what we’ve learned.
And in the same way, we know from our own & the community’s experiences that solutions to all the difficult plastic types (PET, Styrofoam etc.) are much needed and will require people to fully dive into the topic to develop a proper tool/technique.
FOR ALL THE MACHINES and tools we will make sure to document everything we know about components, realistic prices, capacities, challenges, experiences and variations. So people can get an impression of how difficult, expensive or time-consuming it is, BEFORE they start building. (This should make you very happy!)
To me, it cost literally just a fraction (of the bloat you are going to pay ) to help on each continent by giving machine builders the means like a laser cutter, lathe etc.
Sounds so easy how you say it – maybe you could think it through and let us know how exactly this plan would look like (Which countries/cities and who exactly would you give them to? Which machines, which prices and how will they maintain them etc.)?
As far as we experienced it, it definitely requires much more than just putting machines in a place if you want to help the people for a long run – we’re always open for good ideas though, so feel free to further explain your concept.
But in general, getting or building the machines is actually not the problem – the materials and technologies are available in most countries, it’s mostly just about KNOWING where to get parts/services and how to get them cheaper (an issue which will be solved more and more by map and bazar).
People ARE building the machines everywhere in the world – despite the lack of realistic numbers etc. in the download pack (we are very sorry for that and, as already said, will definitely update this as soon as possible!).
BUT one BIG question then is still: What to produce with the plastic waste and how to run a successful recycling workspace?
Seems too unimportant for you to mention, so you might not agree, but this is an important question for us and the community.
There are so many things which can be made out of plastic, but we have to make sure to find solutions for outcomes which are sustainable, useful, applicable and which just make sense.
And then there are even more topics we want to work on to help the community – like a business plan for various locations and concepts (finally!) and ideas and guidelines for activities like events, cleanups, campaigns, competitions etc. We would like to facilitate and offer a “toolkit” for every step of becoming and running a workspace/project tackling the plastic pollution.
I’ve got really upset, nothing learned, nothing added, nothing changed.
I don’t know what kind of plan you were expecting, but if we only find solutions for all the things listed in our V4 plan, that would already be a huge thing and so far we only got good feedback and encouragement from the community.
If you have another, better plan, go ahead and gather people to join you – we would be happy to see and learn even more!
Unpaid jobs or calls for volunteer works. I am not sure where the hard earned 300.000 go but from what i see it’s going into the wrong pockets, again.
It is hard to estimate how much exactly we will require for:
– accommodation and healthy food for nearly 40-50 people for around 6 months
– machines, components and materials for the development
– budgets for PP workspaces/designers working on solutions remotely
– maybe events/exhibitions etc. to communicate the project …
But one thing is for sure: It will all be spent on developing solutions and facilitating people to do it.
And about the volunteer jobs: We could also take the money which we will spend on food and accommodation and just give it to the people, but we experienced that it creates a much nicer atmosphere if it’s the other way around. You don’t have to like it, but that’s the Precious Plastic way and there are enough people who really like this way of “getting paid”. (I personally like it much more!)
WE ARE OPEN-SOURCE, SHARING WHAT WE LEARN AND IN CONSTANT DEVELOPMENT, EVOLVING TOGETHER WITH THE COMMUNITY.
Some reactions to your words:
“monolith pyramid structures”
I guess by the static pyramids you mean Precious Plastic as the top of the pyramid. If so, okay then let us be the top of the pyramid which is trying to gather, document and share everything in one place, exposing it in a concentrated and understandable way to the big “bottom part” aka community.
What’s so bad about that?
We don’t force anyone to do anything, we just share knowledge and experiences, constantly try to improve everything and motivate people to collaborate and help us & each other. What people do with this, is completely up to them.
But I’d say the numbers speak for themselves – more and more people joining the forum, bazar and map, exchanging and developing solutions.
“more censorship “
No idea where you see censorship, could you explain that?
If you mean the realistic prices/sources etc: We’re not trying to hide anything! Again, we will gather every information and share it, but it will take a while as we want to do it properly and understandable for everyone.
“permanent lack of moderation and support”
Yes, we are still a small team of volunteers, contributing their free time for the project. The moderators are doing their best to answer upcoming questions and helping people to find what they are searching for. This is all we could offer so far, but this is also what the community is for and why all those people play such an important role.
We’re hoping to improve this and fully facilitate people to collaborate and help each other without requiring a person to moderate.
My feedback for you:
I don’t know if you realised (or if that was even your intention) but the way you write your messages spread a bad mood in the community.
The forum is there for constructive exchange and collaborative research and development.
I am not saying that criticism and honest feedback is not welcome but the way you write it is often becoming rather deconstructive and very disrespectful (towards us, the PP team, as well as towards other community members). Accusations like „you’re abusing people’s good intentions“ or „the money will land in the wrong pockets“ are just super imprudent and make me think that you maybe should inform yourself again about the intentions of the project and how we work.
Again, I know you are also helping a lot, and appreciate that a lot. But please leave out these unfounded and unnecessary comments about ignorance, lies, intentionally abusing others etc. These assumptions of yours are obviously not shared by the others and don’t help anyone (rather the opposite).
As far as I understood your intention IS to fight plastic pollution and help others to do so right? I can’t see how negative comments would support these good intentions? You’re rather creating a disadvantage for yourself, because others loose the confidence and trust in your person/account.
I hope you can take that as a feedback and seriously think about it.
Just as we took your feedback and WILL include it in our next updates!
And finally, yes, we ARE one army!
We’re putting as much energy as we can in this project and have already come very far, have helped many people to start their recycling project, to build up networks and make a change locally. There is a reason why we have such a growing community and win awards like the recent one. Our global community is a very important and inspiring part of Precious Plastic and we already ARE an army of people working on solutions. It’s about learning and sharing – ENRICHING EVERYONE!
P.S. Call me a fool, but fact is that I managed to build my shredder for 180 + 120€ Motor (without scrapyard components). And it’s working just fine. As I said, it’s about knowing where and how to get your components efficiently. 🙂
No @anne-barbier. You’re not waiting nothing! First homework, brush your teeth, tail between legs, and straight to bed because you are grounded! And yes I’m nothing, but polite. ;-*
In time, I would love to be part of the army. Already applied 3 times, and tomorrow will start parametrize the shredder CAD files in a way YOU, @anne-barbier could use for free to create yours, the size you want, with the sheet metal thickness you have available near you. And I hope this, together with my arduino/raspberry skills, eletronic components and etc, can make me one arm of the army in Netherlands! I’m a bit rusty with cad tools but I’m pretty sure I’ll make a lot of people happier than ‘someone’ notionless did! Apply and let’s let’s meet there. We have a lot to chat… 😉 PS. Pick me team’s Gods! And regardless everything… Go precious plastic, GO
the key is to act!
300k is NOTHING with a global plan to handle.
unpaid jobs is KEY if you want to build an army, unless you do it for business, then you should better pay People.
preciousplastics is not business and you see this in every corner of it, so, it should not pay people and keep the 300k for the right things, it will come, but no rush!
manage money is difficult, waste them compulsively, way too easy… especially for sensitive People like activists…
Dave has not hidden the 300k even if the award is for HIS work, HE made it happend and he has been able to build it out of his control giving us the chance to do the right thing with the little time we have here and there. HE is the founder! This is what he has been rewarded for and he invested so far more than anybody else, giving FOR FREE to everybody, even for People that are now making business out of that.
I see that they are inviting People to work, food and bed are covered! (I wish this happened 10 years ago when I could still do it, sxxt!!!)
an army is not paid, mercenaries are!
Dave & co, GO!!!!
And thanks for what you do and for taking the time to reply to People that still do not understand…
thank you, really!
and last 2 things: we all need a benchmark, a reference place that is making things while sharing how he does it, Dave and his crew is doing that.
in every country there are awards for this kind of activities, each one can apply and win its own and use it locally!
also, even if at a certain poi t Dave and its crew would decide to make a business out of all that… what would wrong in it…??? NADA! He has generated and given away something that anybody can use with the freedom to do the right thing even while doing business on it, because the heart of preciousplastics is to take away the trash from environment and this works waaaaaay better if somebody can sell the products he makes out of such trash, the resourses should come from that…
Stop reacting and just act, have your plan, money are a tool and are easy to find when you have a plan!
@katharina according to my last calculations, it requires around 50K to equip 5 shops on 5 continents with the needed extra machines (metal lathe, laser module, mill). those shops then should be the basic network to build those machines more quickly and cheap. i’ve grown my shop for under 5000 Euro and I am able to all machines quite efficient: knifes (cnc – mill), extrusion-screw (lathe & special attachments and post finish with a 4th axis). of course, you need to first find people you can trust and invest in them….
it has been mentioned several times that the PP network should consist out more specialized stations/nodes, ie: people who do shredding only, etc.. btw. needless to say but it’s clear that the shredded plastic offers in the Bazar is not an option for many of us because we’re currently all sitting on of expensive/inefficient (ignore the 10% of us who can build it cheap) which won’t allow for cheap reselling of chips,…
way to go, folks! build a real network just, i can’t see ANY of that (except the one i’ve build here in Catalonia) !
sometimes i wish we had a dislike button…
Let it flow…
thick skin Buddy!
i did something similar to what you are doing in the last 5 years…
at a certain point I decided that it came the time to shift to the next level and that’s when I decided to reimburse a few of the team (not me) in order to give continuity.
within the team of the most valuable some understood and some didn’t.
Those which did not understand, got lost, we are still in good relationship, but they are no longer on board.
Those which understood, either they got the reimbursement or theywere too busy for guaranteeing continuity and therefore just work as volounteer tripled their efficency and allowed the structure to grow.
Balance of the project…
– we started in 5
– 30 people made themselves available as volunteers in the free time and their precious help (which I’ll never forget) allowed to create the structure in 3 months.
– 10 continued to help after the start-up for another 10-12 months
– another 4 people joined the crew and contributed to collect 30 new subscriptions contributing with 150€/yr
– when I decided to start with the v2.0 we lost 3 people from the initial team, I was very sorry, but I knew that some People cannot just understand and prefere to complain on what is being done rather that looking at the big picture and be strong and constructive. Reacting to the change they lost focuse on action
– in the next 9 months we got on board 20 new volunteers and reached more than 250 subscriptions.
– today our initiative is able to allow free access to the climbing gym to everybody, is hosting physical and social free rehab programs.
Inside myself I’m sure that everybody will understand at the end, we just have to be patient, here is easy, because is a very local initiative, it will be more difficult for you.
Keep focused on action and do not react to the noise, just smile and keep going!
Everybody can make plans and achieve targets, as far as I see it, you are borrowing your efforts to the world and I’m sure that most of people understand that those fxxxxg 300k are an award TO YOU!
You will be a Hero if you will use them for the revolution you are setting-up, but this IS NOT DUE!!! I will not blaim you if you will decide to spend them all in chocolate and icecream for yourself, but I’m sure you would never be able to do it because you understand how more valuable is for you and for the world to be a hero and a Leader, which by the way you are…
so… look ahead and stay focused on your great plan, those which cannot understand will just get lost with more or less noise, the newcomers and those which have Faith, will help you and the project in continuing till the last piece of plastic waste on the more remote beach of this wonderful world.
per aspera ad astra
@davehakkens, well it’s all up to you ! a dislike button on the right platform is no big deal. and as said : it’s obviously not you who is working your ass off for NOTHING in return to extend the PP network meaningful, it’s us machinists who do the supplies, the consulting and advising and spending hours on correcting your wild claims and make all the sacrifices to get people on track! On a daily base ! But ok, i didn’t expect much from you, obviously a lost & spoiled kid. anyway, do as you like, you don’t get a sh** anyways.
Mmmm… my feeling is that you guys love eachother soooo much that you end up being like husband and wife… 😄
@maccabot, lol 🙂
since PP doesn’t even provide metrics about anything (and if they are useless or invalid), here some from me (based on 3 months bazar and direct requests ):
PP Machines & Parts & other Services – coverage
Europe : little to none
Africa (the place where we all dump our trash) : none
South America: little to none
Average experience/resources in machine building or plastics : little to none
Europe : little to middle
South America : none
biggest & most expensive problem with most of the requests : transport fees
So now anyone please tell me how that goofy non-community-confirmed v4 plans are going to change anything of that ? At the end, some rich kids in the western world are having new toys and that’s it !
i really wish you could stop with the aggression towards the Precious Plastic group, as katharinaelleke said, they know your concerns and are going to try work them out in this new version, maybe express your opinions in a more calm way. After all anything towards a more ‘green’ world is a step in the right direction.
just my 2 cents
@brendonscrimgeour haha, make me laugh! i’d love to know what you guys are smoking!
@davehakkens.. A dislike button yes…
But first a word search tool, this will help new members find old solutions to their questions fast.
Great work! Loves all your videos
Am still trying to decide which machine to build (compression or injection).
II won’t be getting a shredder at the beginning, I will buy shredded materials from existing local collection centre’s that sell to large corporations already.
Some other persons would have built these machines and sold them all over the world, (that would have greatly reduced the appeal), but you gave it to us free!
You really don’t have to do more.. But if you do, we will be more grateful as you save us a lot in research costs.
FINALLY, here is an idea, iidea, saw a thread on making sheets for roofing in Vietnam (I can’t find it nnw), PERHAPS you can make a mould for a 48x12x1 inches, compressed or extruded. It should have Z edges for interlocking pieces. Each piece can be srewed down to the roof.
Let us focus on making things like buckets, bowls, cups, sausers, exotic trays, ply boards for furniture, side stools for sitting rooms, reading tables and other everyday living things. These should bring great value to our products. Thank you
Stop sounding like preciousplastic owes you anything.
They gave you a lot for free. Show them what you are doing so far and ask for help if you need any that’s what this forum is for.
You can make suggestions, NOT DEMANDS talk less of ACCUSATIONS.
P.S.: STOP TRYING TP BULLY YOUR WAY INTO THE TEAM. Bully are always useless in the end. You say you have a work shop, show us youe products.
@dplasto, easy said ! better you use the search function of the forum to make those bold claims !
@plasto and all the other fanboys : don’t bother bothering me, you don’t need to like me, it’s dead simple : you have your opinion and we have ours and that’s about it. if you’re spending more time on my tone than actual content/complains/requests then do some months of machine building and networking first, eventually you will be able to actually add something here. i can’t see anything til now …
polite as usual,
@xxxolivierxxx nice to see you back, and cool you didn’t threw me out the 3th time, lol.
for the others: if you don’t have any significant and properly backed up things to add, then please: keep it. this thread is about building and rolling out a proper network (first things first), nothing else.
Thank you.. Just found the search tool above the “forums page”. (guess I missed it earlier)
Well great.. However, it should be up on the menu line so it is visible from all pages.
Thank you once again.
I see a search bar at the bottom of all pages now!
Well done Preciousplastic team!
Makes it easier to see how much @anne-barbier is contributing here.. anne-barbier.. Keep up the good work of machine building. Perhaps you can sell finished machines across the world! 😉
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